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Why is all Israel not Israel???

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Nov 7, 2007.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Luk 16:16The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


    Take care of your part first, you are the Calvinist, not me.

    The Pharasees asked the question, but the "neither shall they say" is the Children.

    Proves my point.

    Col 1:13
    10: That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
    11: Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
    12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
     
    #41 Brother Bob, Nov 9, 2007
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  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I agree. You set up a thread once before (I believe it is 4 pages back) regarding an Acts 1 passage which deals very nicely in this subject. I answered in it there and will repost it with slight modificaitons.


    Up till now Jesus has been revealing the scriptures to them concerning Himself, after His resurrection to His disciples.

    Here we find they are asking a 'specific' question regarding Jesus restoring again 'The Kingdom of Israel' - AT THIS TIME.

    They were expecting Jesus to restore the Kingdom of Israel, thus the usage of 'restore' and 'again' both mean that at one time it was already something established in the past and was to be RE-established in the future. It is also noted in their questioning that there IS A TIME in which this WILL be done, thus they wondered if He was going to fulfill it NOW. The Jews looked and were looking for this promise to be fulfilled (toward the Nation), and the Apostles believed it as well, thus their question regarding that Nation and it's Kingdom being established AGAIN, but by Christ it's eternal God-King.

    Jesus does not ignore the question nor does He give a "non-answer'.
    But He specifically answered the question concerning 'the time' of the restoration of the Kingdom (Remember - they asked if it will be now). Notice if you will that Jesus declares in answer to their question The time is not for you to know (it isn't your business) which the Father has put in (under) His own power.

    What did God put in His power?
    Answer: the 'time' of restoration of the Kingdom of Israel.
    The time was not to be their concern but Gods in accordance with His power (to bring it about at His appointed time due to His pleasure - thus 'power'). But they (like we) are to focus on the power which is given to us to fulfill their (and ours) commisioning as do that which is with in our given power, just as God will do all things with in His power, yet both corrispond to His appointed time.

    Our time in relation to the 'power' given us - Now.
    His time in relation to His own Power - when He does it.

    I need to bow out now - family time :)
     
    #42 Allan, Nov 9, 2007
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I agree as far as the flesh is concerned, but I disagree as far as the Spirit. That is if you agree with the following scripture.

    Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    If you still looking for Israel to become the church, along with the Gentile, you are looking in vain, for they already are. As a matter of fact the beginning of the church under Grace, were all Jews.

    When shall the flesh be delivered (Act 1:6)??? He was talking of the resurrection and when the Kingdom shall be delivered up to the Father.

    Mat 24:36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Col 1:13
    10: That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
    11: Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
    12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (past tense)
    14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


    Luk 16:16The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

    You don't believe the "Power of the Holy Ghost" given us, is not His Power????

    BBob,
     
    #43 Brother Bob, Nov 9, 2007
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  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Amazing that Christians have joined the Jewish doctrine and still looking for the Messiah to come!

    Jer 31:31¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    Hbr 8:12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


    Hbr 8:13In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

    The Jews are looking for the same, but they don't include the Christians in it. They believe and teach Jewish doctrine that the Christians are worshipping a false God, by the name of Jesus Christ, and have no right to the Kingdom!!

    Judaism believes in One G-d.

    A. G-d is One.

    As every Jewish child learns, "Shema Yisroel, HaShem Elokeynu, HaShem Echad" ("Hear or Israel, the Lord is G-d, the Lord is One"). Deut. 6:4. This is a very simple and fundamental concept. G-d is One.

    B. The Trinity.

    Christians give lip service to the Shema, but their theology says that there is a Trinity -- G-d, Jesus (the "son of G-d") and the "Holy Ghost." They will try to teach you that this Trinity of three entities is really just one, like a "bunch of grapes" is one. But the Torah is very precise in its language. Throughout the Torah if echad is to be applied to a bunch of something, the word "agudat," or a form of the word, would be used.

    BBob,
     
    #44 Brother Bob, Nov 10, 2007
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  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Good points, Allan. :thumbs:
     
    #45 TCGreek, Nov 10, 2007
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Where did you get this new interpretation that the kingdom refers to the spirit. The Bible nowhere says that. Nowhwere.

    2. And what does this have to do with Acts 1:6?

    3. I already said that we are in one phase of the kingdom.

    4. With the Advent of Jesus is the beginning of the end, but not the end.


    5. All believers possess the power of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #46 TCGreek, Nov 10, 2007
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I should of said "soul" where the Spirit is. I figure you knew what I meant anyway.

    Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

    Sure not in the body if its "within" you.
    Oh, I agree its a continuing thing or those who are saved after the coming of Christ could not be saved, both Jew and Gentile. As long as it is understood the New Covenant has already come and only some branches of Israel were blinded, not all Israel for that goes against scripture.
    When some say the New Covenant is yet to come to Israel, they leave off the "elect" who were Israel, that were saved when Jesus came and call the branches broken off as being Israel itself, instead of a part of Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles come, which Paul believed that it had come, for he said that "he" might save some of them (blinded ones). IMO

    Have any, ever invited a "Jew" over for Christmas and they accept, according to some they are your brothers and sisters in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they just don't know it yet. Is not believing that Jesus is the Christ a sin???

    BBob,
     
    #47 Brother Bob, Nov 10, 2007
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  8. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Does Scripture ever say "All Israel is not Israel"? If so, in what version is this to be found?

    Ed
     
    #48 EdSutton, Nov 10, 2007
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Romans 9:6

    NASB - 6But it is not as though (Q)the word of God has failed (R)For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
     
    #49 webdog, Nov 10, 2007
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Romans 9:6 , other translations other than the one Web gave.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

    GOD'S WORD® Translation 1995
    Now it is not as though God's word has failed. Clearly, not everyone descended from Israel is part of Israel

    King James Bible
    Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    American Standard Version But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:


    Bible in Basic English
    But it is not as if the word of God was without effect. For they are not all Israel, who are of Israel:


    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Not as though the word of God hath miscarried. For all are not Israelites that are of Israel:

    Darby Bible Translation
    Not however as though the word of God had failed; for not all are Israel which are of Israel;

    English Revised Version
    But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Tyndale New Testament
    I speak not these things as though the words of God had took none effect. For they are not all Israelites which came of Israhel,

    Weymouth New Testament
    Not however that God's word has failed; for all who have sprung from Israel do not count as Israel,

    Webster's Bible Translation
    Not as though the word of God hath taken no effect. For they are not all Israel, who are descendants from Israel?

    World English Bible
    But it is not as though the word of God has come to nothing. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel.

    Young's Literal Translation
    And it is not possible that the word of God hath failed; for not all who are of Israel are these Israel;
     
    #50 Brother Bob, Nov 10, 2007
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  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. This only shows possession and not the point that you are arguing: that the kingdom refers to the redemption of our bodies. I'm still looking for that in Scripture.

    2. Jesus was addressing obstinate Pharisees and not disciples--besides, the among you in a better translation.

    3. Not even this verse supports your position, since you believe the kingdom has already come. Paul is speaking about a future reality, pointing to our glorification.

    4. This doesn't fit the biblical data.

    5. Elect of both Jews and Gentiles are being saved in the church as members of the NC, but there's an aspect of the NC that applies only to Jews, which they will realize in the great End Times Ingathering, during the Tribulation.
     
    #51 TCGreek, Nov 10, 2007
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    BB;
    1Cr 15:26The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death, then will the Kingdom be delivered up to the Father.


    If you are resurrected, you are not dead are you? I have stated over and over that the body is still to enter the Kingdom, after resurrection.


    BB;
    Why would it be a better translation??
    1787
    entoV
    entos
    en-tos'
    from en - en 1722; inside (adverb or noun):--within.



    BB;
    You fail to see the point, that the body is awaiting its entrance into the Kingdom. The inwardly man is already there.


    BB;
    So, you are saying the Jews and the Gentile have become as one already. Then you say "not really".

    BBob,
     
    #52 Brother Bob, Nov 10, 2007
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  13. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. And that should prove that the kingdom is spiritual and refers to the redemption of the body? Come on, BBob! You can do better than that.


    2. Look at the Translation archives, look at several versions, and look at several lexicons.


    3. The only thing I'm failing to see is what is not in Scripture. And to be frank, I'm glad that I'm not seeing it.

    4. Has the church replaced Israel in God's plan?
     
    #53 TCGreek, Nov 10, 2007
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I will quote another verse or so, and maybe you will get it.

    1Cr 15:24Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    1Cr 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


    This is the resurrection is it not???



    And try to find one that fits your theology??



    I thought you believed the body would enter the Kingdom in the resurrection, you change your mind???

    I thought Israel was the church and the church was Israel, with the Gentiles grafted in, as stated in Hos. 1:10. I thought Israel was to be called the sons of God. I thought the Sons of God, was the church??
    Lets see, He came to His own, but they received Him not, but as many as did He gave the Power to be called the Sons of God, is not this a fulfilling of Hos. 1:10??


    BBob,
     
    #54 Brother Bob, Nov 10, 2007
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  15. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I know what the verses say, but I don't get what you want them to say. I see nothing in those verses that the kingdom=spiritual redemption.

    2. For the kingdom is a rule and reign--the theocracy of God if you will.

    3. I have no problem with Paul; my problem is with your use of Paul. This comes after the MK, does it not? That seems to fit the biblical data to me.

    4. If the Kingdom refers to spiritual redemption, what sense is it to speak of a handing over to the Father after the last enemy is destroyed. In fact, this fits better with Rev. 20.


    5. After the final resurrection of the wicked and the GWTJ of Rev. 20

    6. Has nothing to do with what fits my theology. It has everything to do with the best rendering of the Greek at Luke 17:21. I encourage you to explore the data. Unless you think that only one version of the Bible is the word of God.

    7. Not at all! If the body enters the kingdom at the resurrection, how is the kingdom the spiritual redemption of the body?

     
    #55 TCGreek, Nov 11, 2007
  16. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Good morning TC; I am getting ready to leave for church. Do you believe in the resurrection, you will have a Spiritual body and soul, or not?

    1Cr 15:44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Not according to Jesus, Who I base all my beliefs on.

    Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



    Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    see above

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you."

    King James Bible
    Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    American Standard Version
    neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you

    English Revised Version
    neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Tyndale New Testament
    Neither shall men say, Lo here, lo there. For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Weymouth New Testament
    Nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' --for the Kingdom of God is within you."

    Webster's Bible Translation
    Neither will they say, Lo here! or lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    World English Bible
    neither will they say,'Look, here!' or,'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.


    Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



    Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Show me scripture where the MK is an earthly Kingdom?

    Have a good day,

    BBob,
     
    #56 Brother Bob, Nov 11, 2007
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  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Bob, you have a huge problem with the MK, the Jews, and Rev 20, don't you? To you, the MK not 1000 years, it's not on earth, it is not delivered up to heaven while God reforms the earth into the New Earth.

    Can I maybe summarize what TC is saying so you can understand it? When we are saved, our souls are resurrected the heaven ("seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"). In fact, in studying The Revelation, I find that the angels there accomplish the heavenly eqivaent of what is going on in the earth suggesting to me that these angels are "souls" of those still living on the earth + those believers who have perished and now reside there.

    The Holy Spirit comes in and dwells in our body with our spirit thereby bringing the kingdom into us.

    But as the body is not subject to the temporal rule of Christ, we are still not come to His kingdom yet.

    I pray your credibility be restored by this understanding of salvation and the kingdom bc you have deleted a large portion of scripture that everyone else knows is there in order to retain your own pet opinions on this.

    skypair
     
    #57 skypair, Nov 11, 2007
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  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Where you get that God is going to reform the Earth???
    2Pe 3:10¶But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    What do you think I said. I said the Kingdom is within us and the body will become part of the Kingdom in the resurrection. You do believe that don't you????

    You are the one who is still looking for the New Covenant to come to Israel and have joined in with the Jewish doctrine, not me. I believe the New Covenant has already come to Israel and most rejected it.

    Again, show me where the MK is on Earth??? You can't do it but continue to blow off this false doctrine of yours.
    Don't you worry about my standing. The Lord takes care of me. You would be the last one I would turn to, with all the crazy beliefs you have.

    While you are at it, show me where in scripture that the Lord is bringing the New Covenant two times, once when He came and again when He comes again, that is false doctrine. IMO

    Why don't you become a Jew and be done with it?? That is what you believe. They don't plan on you having a part in the MK, unless you become a Jew.

    BBob,
     
    #58 Brother Bob, Nov 11, 2007
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  19. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Good day, BBob.

    1. I do believe in the resurrection of the body (1 Thess. 4:13ff and 1 Cor 15:12ff). It's in Scripture so I cannot ignore what is there.

    2. But where does it say that the kingdom=the redemption of the body. I'm still awaiting that biblical reference.

    3. This does not preclude 1Thess. 4 and Rev. 20 and 1 Cor 15, which point to the resurrection of the righteous before the unrighteous.



    4. "For behold the kingdom of God is in your midst" (Lk 17:21, NASB). Why would Jesus tell some stiffnecked Pharisees that the kingdom was within them, when they were not of His?

    5. Unless you tweak your theology, that wouldn't fit yours as well.

    6. Try Zec. 12-14 to begin with and let me know if all these promises to Israel have been fulfilled.
     
    #59 TCGreek, Nov 11, 2007
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    What do you think, do you believe the body will be a part of the Kingdom when resurrected, or not???

    Jesus is the resurrection, do you think He got it wrong??? Please tell me if Christ got the resurrection wrong???
    I believe He was talking about all His believers. Its plain, He meant the Church to me.
    Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.



    1: In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness

    Of Course it has happened, when the Lord shed His blood, He also shed it for Israel. You do believe that don't you. You don't believe the Lord is going to die again do you?? I preach all the time, that a fountain has been open for sin and uncleanliness.

    Jer 17:13O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, [and] they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
     
    #60 Brother Bob, Nov 11, 2007
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