Why is all Israel not Israel???

1. That is different than what you are arguing from Luke 17:21. What I said and what you are saying are two different things.

2. Based on Luke 17:21 I don't believe that the kingdom is within us--you need to quote me correctly, if you are going to quote me.

[/QUOTE]Post #46
BB:
Col 1:13
10: That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11: Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (past tense)
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

TC:
3. I already said that we are in one phase of the
kingdom.[/QUOTE]

3. The church is the visible manfestation of the kingdom rule of Christ at one level, but not at the consumate level.

4. But this does not negate the MK. Does it?

 

Also, Jesus Himself said the Kingdom cometh not by observation, so the church, just don't come close, unless you mean that which is within us, like Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? We are discussing the Kingdom Jesus spoke of when He said it is within you.[/QUOTE]

1. The church is not the kingdom. The church is a visible evidence of the rule of Christ in the hearts of men and women of all peoples. I hope you understand that.

2. When Jesus said the kingdom was in the midst, He was not referring to an institution, but His rule and presence in their midst---I don't find that a difficult concept.

3. It is the same as in Matt 12:28, where because He was casting out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom presence was in their midst--what is difficult about that to grasp.

4. If you are quoting me, do so accurately.

5. The presence of Christ is within us.

 

1. Paul says that we are in the kingdom (Col 1:13). How can I go against that? But is Paul referring to the kingdom in its Millennial state or Eternal state? Not at all! Only to say that we are under the rule of Christ---that is what kingdom means.

2. Because of Col 1:13, but don't take that to mean that the church=kingdom. Not so! The rule of Christ has created the church, which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, who will both share in the MK and the eternal kingdom, which is the one kingdom but different phases in the unfolding of redemptive history.

3. How many times have Jesus done things and still people didn't get it because they were blind to the truth (Matt 13:11, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted").

4. Jesus said plainly that the kingdom was present in His ministry because He cast out demons by the Spirit of God (Matt 12:28). That is what the Bible says. I cannot dispute that.

I try to quote you accurately and you did say the we are in the Kingdom now, period.

TC;
3. At one level we are in the kingdom

TC:
3. I already said that we are in one phase of the
kingdom

Both are statements by you that we are in the Kingdom. Period,

BBob,[/QUOTE]

5. Just like how the kingdom was present in the ministry of Jesus (Matt 12:28), just like how the kingdom is present now (Col 1:13), one day we will reign with Christ 1000yrs in the MK (Rev 20) and then He will hand it back to the Father (1Cor 15:24).

 

1. Paul says that we are translated into the Kingdom--from being outside of it, to being inside of it--the kingdom, that is.

2. We are in the kingdom per our submission to the rule of Christ in our lives, but this by no means refers to the final state of the kingdom.

 

You are going with a particular translation of the word entos and ignoring other possible translations and the context of Luke 17:21, where Jesus is addressing Pharisees who were not even believers--How could you then turn around and apply that to believers?

 

1. So then all the translators and commentators who go for among you are in error and need to sign on with your position, Is that it?

2. And even if I were to argue for within you, if the kingdom is within you, it would manifest itself and bring attention to the one in whom it is--there's observation for you.

3. As I continue to maintain, Jesus was addressing Pharisees and not believers---who didn't even have the kingdom within them.

 

I'm with TCG on this one . BB , are you insisting that the Kingdom of God was inside the angry Pharisees ? No , that wasn't the case . The KoG was not inside them if that's what you mean by 'within' . Jesus was in their midst . Jesus was within their grasp ; close by . However , the Kingdom of God was not inside them as the Holy Spirit is within us . Jesus is the very embodiment of the KoG . He was in their very presence , but certainly not in them .

One day the Pharisees asked Jesus , "When will the Kingdom of God come ?" Jesus replied , "The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs . [ by your speculations ] You won't be able to say , 'Here it is !' or 'It's over there !' For the Kingdom of God is already among you." ( Luke 17:20-21 NLTse )

 

You seem to be saying that the kind of "seeing" that the Pharisees were doing was strictly physical, ie. they saw Him, they talked with Him.
But it seems like Jesus is implying spiritual sight which is what the Pharisees seemed to lack. They were blind, no?
John 3:3 speaks about the ability to see the kingdom that comes with being "born again".
It seems the Pharisees claimed they could see, but in John 9:40-41, Jesus seems to imply that their claim was false and therefore the guilt remained.

And with regards to the passage in Luke 17:21, where Jesus says the kingdom does not come with your "carefrul observation", perhaps he's referring to their careful observation of the law. Meaning that one does not become part of the kingdom because of their ability to keep all the strict rules and laws that the Pharisees required of the people, but by believing in Jesus Christ being the Son of God as did the blind man in John 9.

Just a thought. I don't have any of our commentaries here with me to check on the intended meaning.

 

BB: I had said way back in post #112 that Jesus is the very embodiment of the Kingdom of God .

 

I really don't know what your point is then.

The Pharisees had careful observations of the law, in fact, wrong and overbearing observations of the law that they forced on the Jewish people. Jesus seems to be telling them and any others who think like the Pharisees, that God's kingdom is not entered by fastidious law-keeping.

Yes.