Why is all Israel not Israel???

[TCGreek]

,
Post #38
BB;
He seems to have a handle on the fact that we are in the Kingdom, that is good and unlike others who are still looking for it.

TC;
3. At one level we are in the kingdom, but at another we are not, for it is awaiting its ultimate consummation.

1. That is different than what you are arguing from Luke 17:21. What I said and what you are saying are two different things.

2. Based on Luke 17:21 I don't believe that the kingdom is within us--you need to quote me correctly, if you are going to quote me.

[/QUOTE]Post #46
BB:
Col 1:13
10: That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11: Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (past tense)
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

TC:
3. I already said that we are in one phase of the
kingdom.[/QUOTE]

3. The church is the visible manfestation of the kingdom rule of Christ at one level, but not at the consumate level.

Luk 16:16The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Col 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Rev 1:9¶I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

4. But this does not negate the MK. Does it?

 

[Brother Bob]

4. But this does not negate the MK. Does it?

I thought I made it plain that the Mk is Spiritual? I believe in an eternal Kingdom.

TC:
3. I already said that we are in one phase of the
kingdom.

3. The church is the visible manfestation of the kingdom rule of Christ at one level, but not at the consumate level.

[/quote]
Also, Jesus Himself said the Kingdom cometh not by observation, so the church, just don't come close, unless you mean that which is within us, like Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? We are discussing the Kingdom Jesus spoke of when He said it is within you.

1. You say "among or in the midst" of you, which they could see and would go against what Jesus said, it comes not by seeing.

2. You say now, its the church, which you can see and would go against what Jesus said, it comes not by seeing.

3. Now, I believe the true church is within us, if you mean that then we are getting closer.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

I thought I made it plain that the Mk is Spiritual? I believe in an eternal Kingdom.



3. The church is the visible manfestation of the kingdom rule of Christ at one level, but not at the consumate level.

Also, Jesus Himself said the Kingdom cometh not by observation, so the church, just don't come close, unless you mean that which is within us, like Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? We are discussing the Kingdom Jesus spoke of when He said it is within you.[/QUOTE]

1. The church is not the kingdom. The church is a visible evidence of the rule of Christ in the hearts of men and women of all peoples. I hope you understand that.

1. You say "among or in the midst" of you, which they could see and would go against what Jesus said, it comes not by seeing.

2. When Jesus said the kingdom was in the midst, He was not referring to an institution, but His rule and presence in their midst---I don't find that a difficult concept.

3. It is the same as in Matt 12:28, where because He was casting out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom presence was in their midst--what is difficult about that to grasp.

2. You say now, its the church, which you can see and would go against what Jesus said, it comes not by seeing.

4. If you are quoting me, do so accurately.

3. Now, I believe the true church is within us, if you mean that then we are getting closer.

BBob,

5. The presence of Christ is within us.

 

[Brother Bob]

Also, Jesus Himself said the Kingdom cometh not by observation, so the church, just don't come close, unless you mean that which is within us, like Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? We are discussing the Kingdom Jesus spoke of when He said it is within you.

1. The church is not the kingdom. The church is a visible evidence of the rule of Christ in the hearts of men and women of all peoples. I hope you understand that.
But you said we were in the Kingdom now, so what is the Kingdom that we are IN?

TC;
3. At one level we are in the kingdom



2. When Jesus said the kingdom was in the midst, He was not referring to an institution, but His rule and presence in their midst---I don't find that a difficult concept.

I find great error, when Jesus said you could not see it, I know they saw him. This just does not make sense TC; at all.

3. It is the same as in Matt 12:28, where because He was casting out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom presence was in their midst--what is difficult about that to grasp.

He said you could not see it TC; why can't you understand simple scripture??



4. If you are quoting me, do so accurately.



5. The presence of Christ is within us. Is that the Kingdom??[/quote]

I try to quote you accurately and you did say the we are in the Kingdom now, period.

TC;
3. At one level we are in the kingdom

TC:
3. I already said that we are in one phase of the
kingdom

Both are statements by you that we are in the Kingdom. Period,

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

1. The church is not the kingdom. The church is a visible evidence of the rule of Christ in the hearts of men and women of all peoples. I hope you understand that.
But you said we were in the Kingdom now, so what is the Kingdom that we are IN?

1. Paul says that we are in the kingdom (Col 1:13). How can I go against that? But is Paul referring to the kingdom in its Millennial state or Eternal state? Not at all! Only to say that we are under the rule of Christ---that is what kingdom means.

TC;
3. At one level we are in the kingdom

2. Because of Col 1:13, but don't take that to mean that the church=kingdom. Not so! The rule of Christ has created the church, which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, who will both share in the MK and the eternal kingdom, which is the one kingdom but different phases in the unfolding of redemptive history.

2. When Jesus said the kingdom was in the midst, He was not referring to an institution, but His rule and presence in their midst---I don't find that a difficult concept.

I find great error, when Jesus said you could not see it, I know they saw him. This just does not make sense TC; at all.

3. How many times have Jesus done things and still people didn't get it because they were blind to the truth (Matt 13:11, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted").

3. It is the same as in Matt 12:28, where because He was casting out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom presence was in their midst--what is difficult about that to grasp.

He said you could not see it TC; why can't you understand simple scripture??

4. Jesus said plainly that the kingdom was present in His ministry because He cast out demons by the Spirit of God (Matt 12:28). That is what the Bible says. I cannot dispute that.

4. If you are quoting me, do so accurately.



5. The presence of Christ is within us. Is that the Kingdom??

I try to quote you accurately and you did say the we are in the Kingdom now, period.

TC;
3. At one level we are in the kingdom

TC:
3. I already said that we are in one phase of the
kingdom

Both are statements by you that we are in the Kingdom. Period,

BBob,[/QUOTE]

5. Just like how the kingdom was present in the ministry of Jesus (Matt 12:28), just like how the kingdom is present now (Col 1:13), one day we will reign with Christ 1000yrs in the MK (Rev 20) and then He will hand it back to the Father (1Cor 15:24).

 

[Brother Bob]

1. Paul says that we are in the kingdom (Col 1:13). How can I go against that? But is Paul referring to the kingdom in its Millennial state or Eternal state? Not at all! Only to say that we are under the rule of Christ---that is what kingdom means.

Yes, inwardly or outwardly???

Quote:
TC;
3. At one level we are in the kingdom

2. Because of Col 1:13, but don't take that to mean that the church=kingdom. Not so! The rule of Christ has created the church, which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, who will both share in the MK and the eternal kingdom, which is the one kingdom but different phases in the unfolding of redemptive history.

Wasn't the question. The question was at what level now are we in the Kingdom??

2. When Jesus said the kingdom was in the midst, He was not referring to an institution, but His rule and presence in their midst---I don't find that a difficult concept.

I find great error, when Jesus said you could not see it, I know they saw him. This just does not make sense TC; at all.
3. How many times have Jesus done things and still people didn't get it because they were blind to the truth (Matt 13:11, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted").

Ok, where is it????

Quote:
3. It is the same as in Matt 12:28, where because He was casting out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom presence was in their midst--what is difficult about that to grasp.

He said you could not see it TC; why can't you understand simple scripture??

4. Jesus said plainly that the kingdom was present in His ministry because He cast out demons by the Spirit of God (Matt 12:28). That is what the Bible says. I cannot dispute that.

Well, can't say you are denying it, but if it comes not by observation maybe you could give an answer to where it is, being you can't deny scripture???

5. Just like how the kingdom was present in the ministry of Jesus (Matt 12:28), just like how the kingdom is present now (Col 1:13), one day we will reign with Christ 1000yrs in the MK (Rev 20) and then He will hand it back to the Father (1Cor 15:24).

You should go in to politics, you didn't say nothing.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, inwardly or outwardly???

1. Paul says that we are translated into the Kingdom--from being outside of it, to being inside of it--the kingdom, that is.

Wasn't the question. The question was at what level now are we in the Kingdom??

Ok, where is it????

2. We are in the kingdom per our submission to the rule of Christ in our lives, but this by no means refers to the final state of the kingdom.

 

[Brother Bob]

2. We are in the kingdom per our submission to the rule of Christ in our lives, but this by no means refers to the final state of the kingdom.

Have I ever stated the Kingdom was at its final state???

I will go with Jesus and believe the Kingdom is within us.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Have I ever stated the Kingdom was at its final state???

I will go with Jesus and believe the Kingdom is within us.

BBob,

You are going with a particular translation of the word entos and ignoring other possible translations and the context of Luke 17:21, where Jesus is addressing Pharisees who were not even believers--How could you then turn around and apply that to believers?

 

[Brother Bob]

You are going with a particular translation of the word entos and ignoring other possible translations and the context of Luke 17:21, where Jesus is addressing Pharisees who were not even believers--How could you then turn around and apply that to believers?

What makes it true, is not just the word "within" you. It also says it comes not by observation, and everything you have posted, you could see. So, I know you are wrong, regardless of the translation. Go ahead and use "among" you if you like, but then you could "see" it, which would make it in error.
When you are in error, you need to go back and start over.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

What makes it true, is not just the word "within" you. It also says it comes not by observation, and everything you have posted, you could see. So, I know you are wrong, regardless of the translation. Go ahead and use "among" you if you like, but then you could "see" it, which would make it in error.
When you are in error, you need to go back and start over.

BBob,

1. So then all the translators and commentators who go for among you are in error and need to sign on with your position, Is that it?

2. And even if I were to argue for within you, if the kingdom is within you, it would manifest itself and bring attention to the one in whom it is--there's observation for you.

3. As I continue to maintain, Jesus was addressing Pharisees and not believers---who didn't even have the kingdom within them.

 

[Rippon]

I'm with TCG on this one . BB , are you insisting that the Kingdom of God was inside the angry Pharisees ? No , that wasn't the case . The KoG was not inside them if that's what you mean by 'within' . Jesus was in their midst . Jesus was within their grasp ; close by . However , the Kingdom of God was not inside them as the Holy Spirit is within us . Jesus is the very embodiment of the KoG . He was in their very presence , but certainly not in them .

One day the Pharisees asked Jesus , "When will the Kingdom of God come ?" Jesus replied , "The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs . [ by your speculations ] You won't be able to say , 'Here it is !' or 'It's over there !' For the Kingdom of God is already among you." ( Luke 17:20-21 NLTse )

 

[Brother Bob]

I'm with TCG on this one . BB , are you insisting that the Kingdom of God was inside the angry Pharisees ? No , that wasn't the case . The KoG was not inside them if that's what you mean by 'within' . Jesus was in their midst . Jesus was within their grasp ; close by . However , the Kingdom of God was not inside them as the Holy Spirit is within us . Jesus is the very embodiment of the KoG . He was in their very presence , but certainly not in them .

One day the Pharisees asked Jesus , "When will the Kingdom of God come ?" Jesus replied , "The Kingdom of God can't be detected by visible signs . [ by your speculations ] You won't be able to say , 'Here it is !' or 'It's over there !' For the Kingdom of God is already among you." ( Luke 17:20-21 NLTse )

Please explain "it comes not by observation"???

Is Jesus not your King now????

BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

1. So then all the translators and commentators who go for among you are in error and need to sign on with your position, Is that it?

2. And even if I were to argue for within you, if the kingdom is within you, it would manifest itself and bring attention to the one in whom it is--there's observation for you.

3. As I continue to maintain, Jesus was addressing Pharisees and not believers---who didn't even have the kingdom within them.

Please explain "it comes not by observation"???

Are you saying that Jesus is not your King now?????

2. And even if I were to argue for within you, if the kingdom is within you, it would manifest itself and bring attention to the one in whom it is--there's observation for you.

So, you can see inside of yourself????

1. So then all the translators and commentators who go for among you are in error and need to sign on with your position, Is that it?

Among you and not able to see it, just plainly do not go together. That is just common sense.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

If so, then Jesus told false, for He said they could not see it, and they not only saw Him, but talked with Him.

Among you and not able to see it, just plainly do not go together. That is just common sense.

You seem to be saying that the kind of "seeing" that the Pharisees were doing was strictly physical, ie. they saw Him, they talked with Him.
But it seems like Jesus is implying spiritual sight which is what the Pharisees seemed to lack. They were blind, no?
John 3:3 speaks about the ability to see the kingdom that comes with being "born again".
It seems the Pharisees claimed they could see, but in John 9:40-41, Jesus seems to imply that their claim was false and therefore the guilt remained.

And with regards to the passage in Luke 17:21, where Jesus says the kingdom does not come with your "carefrul observation", perhaps he's referring to their careful observation of the law. Meaning that one does not become part of the kingdom because of their ability to keep all the strict rules and laws that the Pharisees required of the people, but by believing in Jesus Christ being the Son of God as did the blind man in John 9.

Just a thought. I don't have any of our commentaries here with me to check on the intended meaning.

 

[Brother Bob]

You seem to be saying that the kind of "seeing" that the Pharisees were doing was strictly physical, ie. they saw Him, they talked with Him.
But it seems like Jesus is implying spiritual sight which is what the Pharisees seemed to lack. They were blind, no?
John 3:3 speaks about the ability to see the kingdom that comes with being "born again".
It seems the Pharisees claimed they could see, but in John 9:40-41, Jesus seems to imply that their claim was false and therefore the guilt remained.

And with regards to the passage in Luke 17:21, where Jesus says the kingdom does not come with your "carefrul observation", perhaps he's referring to their careful observation of the law. Meaning that one does not become part of the kingdom because of their ability to keep all the strict rules and laws that the Pharisees required of the people, but by believing in Jesus Christ being the Son of God as did the blind man in John 9.

Just a thought. I don't have any of our commentaries here with me to check on the intended meaning.

Jesus just said it comes not by observation. He did not say, only the Pharisees.

The important question is:

Is Jesus our King now or not?

Col 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

1. So then all the translators and commentators who go for among you are in error and need to sign on with your position, Is that it?

2. And even if I were to argue for within you, if the kingdom is within you, it would manifest itself and bring attention to the one in whom it is--there's observation for you.

3. As I continue to maintain, Jesus was addressing Pharisees and not believers---who didn't even have the kingdom within them.

So, was Jesus the Kingdom, is that what you are saying???

 

[Rippon]

BB: I had said way back in post #112 that Jesus is the very embodiment of the Kingdom of God .

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Jesus just said it comes not by observation. He did not say, only the Pharisees.

I really don't know what your point is then.

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come from your careful observation,"

The Pharisees had careful observations of the law, in fact, wrong and overbearing observations of the law that they forced on the Jewish people. Jesus seems to be telling them and any others who think like the Pharisees, that God's kingdom is not entered by fastidious law-keeping.

The important question is:
Is Jesus our King now or not?

Yes.

 

[Brother Bob]

I really don't know what your point is then.

The Pharisees had careful observations of the law, in fact, wrong and overbearing observations of the law that they forced on the Jewish people. Jesus seems to be telling them and any others who think like the Pharisees, that God's kingdom is not entered by fastidious law-keeping.

Yes.

My point is, they could see Jesus, but they could not see the Kingdom, because it is within God's children.

BBob,