Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?

[DHK]

Baptism is not required for salvation. Not because it is works but because God never required it. That is a bad argument.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham was justified by faith, not through the good works that he did, but rather through faith; as the above verses teach.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK.

Please show from the NT where "repentance from sin" is required for a person to be saved.

from A Baptist Catechism with Commentary;pg174


The term “repentance” signifies a change of mind. Soteriologically, it is a
change of mind or heart concerning sin which results in a turning from sin to
God, attended by a subsequent change of lifestyle (Matt. 3:7–8; Mk. 1:14–15;
Acts 17:30–31; 20:21; 26:19–20).

It is not the work of repenting from one's sins that is needed.

sure it is

It is the change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God.

The natural man is unable to do this

A change of attitude from rebellion against God to submission to God.

The natural man is unable to do this

That happens at the same time a person puts their faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord

.

Unless God grants repentance and faith....the natural man is devoid of faith.

 

[jbh28]

I guess I don't throw around words so lightly. If one is "totally submitted to Christ," then wouldn't it be fair to say that they have no sin that they know of? If they did, then they wouldn't be totally submitted would they? That is one of the problems with LS. It leaves no room for error in the way it expresses itself.
From the quotes that I have read, MacArthur says:
"In order to be saved on must be totally submitted to Christ as Lord."
To me that implies or infers sinlessness. It also implies works, not grace.

Total as in all areas, not total as in every single decision that's made. That's why it's not meant as sinlessness. No one teaches that(well, at least no one in whom we are talking about)

I think we might have to agree to disagree, at least in part.
How does total submission to Christ not equal perfection? [/quote]See above...

I believe that the reality of total submission is a goal to work toward but never will be realized. Those who fail to see their true sinfulness in the face of a holy and righteous God have much to learn. How can anyone say they are totally submitted? We are not even doing all that we should be doing, much less not doing what we should not be doing.

This is why it's important for people to define their words. Many arguments could be solved by just defining words. You defined total submission differently in how others were using it. I'm not saying either is right or wrong in the definition, but just different and we must understand that difference in discussion.

If looked at objectively, in the current terminology of both MacArthur and Washer, I believe we can see how wrong it is.

"In order to be saved on must be totally submitted to Christ as Lord."
The above statement is in direct opposition to "by grace are ye saved through faith." Salvation is a gift to be received, not a package to be worked for in "submission."
Where does the NT demand repentance in order to be saved?
In the verses you provide what does repentance mean?
Many times the "texts" given use repentance as a work in and of itself.

Repentance is a change of mind. It results in a changed action, but repentance in and of itself is no works. True repentance will result in changed actions. Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 are a few examples of repentance for salvation and they also speak about the results of repentance. "performing deeds in keeping with their repentance." (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20) are a few others. Jesus taught repentance many times. Matthew 4:17 is one example. 2 Peter 3:9

Also remember that reptance is a gift from God. 2 Tim 2:25, acts 11:18

This is the rub isn't it? In many of the posts I read here, the Cal will not take the word of one who says he has trusted Christ as sincere. He will take a wait and see attitude. Only if he sees works is the person saved. Therefore he is actually saved by works. IMO, he would not consider the thief on the cross saved because there was no fruit; the same holds true for Lot, in spite of what the Bible says.
We must leave the salvation of individuals in the hands of God. We are not their judges.

The thief died, so it's not a valid example. And no, he's not saved by works. Abraham was justified by faith. His faith was demonstrated by his works according to James. The Bible does teach that we are changed people and we will product fruit. I take a person by their word that they are saved as I cannot see their heart. Their actions though will demonstrate what's in their heart.

But that is what he says. He should say what he means and mean what he says. I take him at his word.

But understand what he means and not change it to mean something else when he has clearly said what he means.

 

[Iconoclast]

Total as in all areas, not total as in every single decision that's made. That's why it's not meant as sinlessness. No one teaches that(well, at least no one in whom we are talking about)

I think we might have to agree to disagree, at least in part.
How does total submission to Christ not equal perfection?

See above...
This is why it's important for people to define their words. Many arguments could be solved by just defining words. You defined total submission differently in how others were using it. I'm not saying either is right or wrong in the definition, but just different and we must understand that difference in discussion.
Repentance is a change of mind. It results in a changed action, but repentance in and of itself is no works. True repentance will result in changed actions. Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 are a few examples of repentance for salvation and they also speak about the results of repentance. "performing deeds in keeping with their repentance." (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20) are a few others. Jesus taught repentance many times. Matthew 4:17 is one example. 2 Peter 3:9

Also remember that reptance is a gift from God. 2 Tim 2:25, acts 11:18

The thief died, so it's not a valid example. And no, he's not saved by works. Abraham was justified by faith. His faith was demonstrated by his works according to James. The Bible does teach that we are changed people and we will product fruit. I take a person by their word that they are saved as I cannot see their heart. Their actions though will demonstrate what's in their heart.

But understand what he means and not change it to mean something else when he has clearly said what he means.

[/QUOTE]:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

Posted by Icon

from A Baptist Catechism with Commentary;pg174

The term “repentance” signifies a change of mind. Soteriologically, it is a
change of mind or heart concerning sin which results in a turning from sin to
God, attended by a subsequent change of lifestyle (Matt. 3:7–8; Mk. 1:14–15;
Acts 17:30–31; 20:21; 26:19–20).

You never answered my question; you avoided. I will repeat the question again:
Please show from the NT where "repentance from sin" is required for a person to be saved.
The NT is inspired; the Catechism is not.

It is not the work of repenting from one's sins that is needed.

sure it is.

No it isn't. When you got saved did you repent of all your sins--every one of them? Did you remember them all? Are you sure you didn't miss any? If you did, by your definition you still might not be saved--especially if you have to repent of all your sins. Your definition is ridiculous and leads to salvation by works. I hope you can see that.

It is the change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God.

The natural man is unable to do this

That is the fallacy of Calvinism. The command in the Bible is:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
One cannot believe without repenting at the same time.
To use one of your own words: One does not sit around like a "zombie" waiting for God to do some mysterious mystical act on him that he knows nothing about. That is no salvation or regeneration without the Word of God. In fact we are born again through the Word of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

A change of attitude from rebellion against God to submission to God.

The natural man is unable to do this

Nonsense. If one can have a change of mind about you or anyone else they can have a change of mind about God. God is also a person.

That happens at the same time a person puts their faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord

Unless God grants repentance and faith....the natural man is devoid of faith.

You take this verse out of context. It is doubtful that you can explain what it means. But I will give you the chance to try.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is not the work of repenting from one's sins that is needed.
It is the change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God. A change of attitude from rebellion against God to submission to God. That happens at the same time a person puts their faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord.

One cannot change their mind about God, one cannot hear about the cross, without dealing with their sin. It is just not possible.

 

[DHK]

Total as in all areas, not total as in every single decision that's made. That's why it's not meant as sinlessness. No one teaches that(well, at least no one in whom we are talking about)

That is very subjective. Maybe you just have three areas of your life and the next guy has 20. He has more to clean up then you have--kind of convenient don't you think? Almost as convenient as the Catholics dividing up sin into different categories. When the Muslim uses the word "submission" he means total submission. That is what the word "Islam" means. A devoted Muslim is in complete submission to Allah. (No fear of blowing themselves of up).

This is why it's important for people to define their words. Many arguments could be solved by just defining words. You defined total submission differently in how others were using it. I'm not saying either is right or wrong in the definition, but just different and we must understand that difference in discussion.

I agree.

Repentance is a change of mind. It results in a changed action, but repentance in and of itself is no works. True repentance will result in changed actions. Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 are a few examples of repentance for salvation and they also speak about the results of repentance. "performing deeds in keeping with their repentance." (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20) are a few others. Jesus taught repentance many times. Matthew 4:17 is one example. 2 Peter 3:9

Also remember that reptance is a gift from God. 2 Tim 2:25, acts 11:18

First, almost all the Scripture given about repentance is directed to the Jews: spoken by Jesus or John the Baptist, or Peter on the Day of Pentecost.
Second, the other verses were used in context of Christians. For a Christian to repent of sin is quite biblical (see 1John 1:9). For an unsaved person to repent of their sins is not biblical at all.
Third, I believe the verse used (Acts 11:18) is all too often pulled out of context and used as a pretext to buoy up some pet doctrine which is not biblical.
No, repentance is not a gift from God; neither is faith. God does not give unbelievers Godly gifts or fruit of the Spirit like faith.

The thief died, so it's not a valid example. And no, he's not saved by works. Abraham was justified by faith. His faith was demonstrated by his works according to James. The Bible does teach that we are changed people and we will product fruit. I take a person by their word that they are saved as I cannot see their heart. Their actions though will demonstrate what's in their heart.

I agree with you; but that is not what MacArthur teaches.

 

[Revmitchell]

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham was justified by faith, not through the good works that he did, but rather through faith; as the above verses teach.

And yet faith was not without the works even with Abraham. However, I have no idea why you believe this addresses my post.

 

[DHK]

One cannot change their mind about God, one cannot hear about the cross, without dealing with their sin. It is just not possible.

They do not have to deal with sin or sins.
They must reckon with their own sinfulness, sin nature, the fact that they are sinners, even criminals before a holy and righteous God, ones that have broken His laws and are sentenced to an eternity in Hell.
Repentance from sins doesn't rectify the situation. A change of mind toward God and from one's own sinfulness is what is needed.

 

[Revmitchell]

They do not have to deal with sin or sins.
They must reckon with their own sinfulness, sin nature, the fact that they are sinners, even criminals before a holy and righteous God, ones that have broken His laws and are sentenced to an eternity in Hell.
Repentance from sins doesn't rectify the situation. A change of mind toward God and from one's own sinfulness is what is needed.

This is where your problem is. You take what Mac says and what I have posted and twist our words to fit your agenda. I have to say this is the first time I have seen you do this.


Saying deal with their sin and saying dealing with their sinfulness is the exact same thing. You are being dishonest. I am done with you.

 

[DHK]

This is where your problem is. You take what Mac says and what I have posted and twist our words to fit your agenda. I have to say this is the first time I have seen you do this.


Saying deal with their sin and saying dealing with their sinfulness is the exact same thing. You are being dishonest. I am done with you.

Some of us have been discussing this on various threads for some time. If you have not been paying attention I can't help you. Every person must be made aware of his sinfulness before he can get saved. I don't believe anyone would disagree with that. That is not what is in question.

The problem arises when certain people say "Repent of your sins and be saved." The Bible does not say to repent of your sins." They are not the same thing. Or, more specifically: "Repent of all your sins." It is impossible to repent of all your sins. God doesn't require us to repent of our sins. He requires that a lost person see himself as a sinner. That is different. The sinner need not list all the sins he has ever committed. That is works. Pay attention. That is what many of us have been talking about.

 

[convicted1]

So, theorhetically, can one go to heaven without repentance?

 

[convicted1]

You are incorrect. Revmitchell posted a series of good commentary quotes on repentance (metanoia). Repentance is something granted by God. It is a turning from sin. A person who comes to faith in Christ is making a turn; changing allegiance if you will. They are changing from following the prince of the power of the air -- Satan -- (Eph. 2:2) to following Christ.

You are making the mistake of thinking repentance is separate from the order of salvation. It is not. It is inherent to it and it is bequeathed by God as an act of grace on His part.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

So, theorhetically, can one go to heaven without repentance?

No, notice I gave two different definitions of repentance: one biblical and the other not.
We often hear the call to "repent from all your sins, or simply to "repent from your sins." This is not biblical. It is a works based salvation. The sinner cannot repent from his sins.
He can repent from: his rebellious attitude toward God, his sinfulness, the fact that he is a sinner and has offended a holy and righteous God. This is what he needs to see. He needs to see himself, for what he really is, before God.

Whatever happened to sola fide and sola gratia--great pillars of the Reformation?

Over and over again the Bible affirms that salvation is by faith alone.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

What does it mean to believe? When I put my faith in Christ as Lord, then the object of my faith becomes Christ. Before that time what was the object of my faith? No doubt it was the world and its sinful pleasures. Perhaps it was self, fame, glory, etc. Each person could define it differently, but faith always has an object. Anyway you put it, the object of the unsaved person was not Christ.
In salvation when the object of that person's faith becomes Christ, then he turns from the former things that he had as the object of his faith (the world and its accompanying sin, his selfish desires, etc.

The above is also a definition of repentance is it not?
The word means "a turning from."
He turns from, and turns to.
Faith and repentance go together. The are two sides of the same coin and happen at the same time. They always go together. You can't have one without the other.

 

[convicted1]

Brother, what sins do you not turn from when you come to Christ? When someone turns to God, they turn from their self, and their sinful lifestyle. It's a surrender of their will to His will. God, when He forgives, He wipes their slate clean. So, in essence, salvation is repenting of all their sins they have committed.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is a fact. One cannot look to the cross for their salvation and not deal with their sin. Anything else is just easy believism and ungodly.

 

[convicted1]

You keep saying only to believe and they'll be saved. Belief and repentance are joined at the hip....can't have one w/o t'other....

 

[convicted1]

This is a fact. One cannot look to the cross for their salvation and not deal with their sin. Anything else is just easy believism and ungodly.

:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Judith]

You are incorrect. Revmitchell posted a series of good commentary quotes on repentance (metanoia). Repentance is something granted by God. It is a turning from sin. A person who comes to faith in Christ is making a turn; changing allegiance if you will. They are changing from following the prince of the power of the air -- Satan -- (Eph. 2:2) to following Christ.

You are making the mistake of thinking repentance is separate from the order of salvation. It is not. It is inherent to it and it is bequeathed by God as an act of grace on His part.

I never said we do not have to repent to be saved. I have always said repentance and faith are required just like the bible says.

 

[Judith]

One cannot change their mind about God, one cannot hear about the cross, without dealing with their sin. It is just not possible.

Our sin is not the major issue in all this. Our lack of desire to have a God rule over us by our own choice is however. Our sin only shows us just how much we loath God. That is why the law was given. We think we are good and have nothing against God when all the time we hate God.

The NT never tells us to repent of sin to be saved. That is a works salvation. Many people are willing to give up certain things in their life if God will let them into heaven and all the while they really do not want God as Lord of their life. That is our real problem not wanting God to have His rightful place in our lives. The sin only prove is.
Our sin shows us where we really are in regards to God. The question is do we really want Him as Lord over us or not. If we willingly and wantingly choose to get right with God no matter what it may cost us we are in a state of repentance. At that point we are told to take that heart and place it on Christ as our Lord, which is faith, and we are saved. The turning from sin (repentance of sin) is the result of salvation not the avenue to it.