Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?

[Revmitchell]

That's silly. I hold no such delusion, and my previous post should disprove your conclusion for you.I fully understand it. It is nothing more than changing one's affections from earthly things to heavenly things. It involves turning to the living God from a god of self. It is looking to Christ instead of looking to another, including self or a "program" or anything that is used as a replacement for God. It has nothing to do with turning from individual sins. If it did, repentance would be sufficient for salvation.How that sinful state is defined is what is at issue. Many believe it is the baggage of sin we carry with us, the individual acts of rebellion against God. It is not. Our sinful state is defined by the very rebellion that has previously kept us from understanding why God had done for us as He has done.

You are welcome to your error and I will leave you to it.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

There is no error there, but you're welcome to erroneously believe there is if you wish. :laugh:

 

[DHK]

Where you struggle with the gospel is in your thinking that repentence (sinning against God) means sinnless perfection. It does not. You do not truly understand repentance.

Repentance in reference to salvation is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God. It is never repenting from sins. You cannot find that in the NT. Can you give NT evidence for that definition besides OT references such as the last of the OT prophets, John the Baptist.

When we come to the Lord for salvation we need to do that understanding out sinful state and having a godly sorrow for it.

Like the above you take scripture out of context.
The only time "godly sorrow" is used is in reference to believers, and never the unsaved. It is impossible for the unsaved or unregenerate to have "godly" sorrow. They are not godly and never will be godly until AFTER they are saved. Look up the phrase in a concordance "godly sorrow" find the context, and see what it is talking about.

 

[Yeshua1]

:thumbs::thumbs::wavey:

He shall save his people from their sins...not in them.

You deny that there is a carnal Christian, deny that we still have a sinful nature to deal with, but in that case, you would see things way that you have so in thpresented them!

And please understand that a real Christian does NOT say "jesus saved me, not free to keep on sinning as i please", that is the LS strawman erected here, bu that we will be maturing in Christ, but still will have those sin areas and problems that tend to get us at times off the path, but once we confess and repent of them, he gets us right back on track!

I just don't see the lord who did so much to save us, to be so petty as to not be able to save us unto the very end, because we have at times chosen to sin...

 

[Judith]

We are not denying he is received as both Lord (as to his Deity) and Savior (as to his work of redemption). However, we are denying that the gift of eternal life is in any way based on, joined with, or dependent upon any kind of works done in our own person. We believe that the works performed solely in the Person of Jesus Christ satisfied completely the Law of God in our behalf - plus nothing, minus nothing. That God by his grace works in us to will and to do OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE in keeping with his purpose for the life of each person and in keeping with the measure of grace, and the measure of faith allotted to them. Christians vary in spiritual growth and in MANIFEST righteousness but they do not vary on the righteousness necessary to be justified before God - SINLESS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Moreover, not all righteousness is MANIFESTED in the person's life as Lot's "heart was vexed" with the sins around him but his own testimony was so poorly visibly manifested that even his children would not listen to him or follow him, and even his own wife was reluctant to do so, and he was easily led by his daughters into drunkenness and incest as the last words we have about his life as a child of God. However, Peter says he was not of them who are reserved for eternal darkness.

In addition, no person is without sin at any time in their life. To think so, is to either redefine the standard of the Law or redefine sin. Sin begins with a wrong motive (1 Cor. 10:31) and then proceeds to wrong attitudes and actions but even MANIFEST righteousness is regarded as "iniquity" (Mt. 7:23) if the motive is wrong. We are at all times coming short of "the glory of God" which is sinlessness (Mt. 5:48; James 2:10-11).

All children of God persevere in saving faith (1 Jn. 2:19) but not all perserve in MANIFEST righteousness (Lot, David, Solomon, etc.). However, all do persevere in righteous intent (Rom. 7:18 - "for to will is present but how to perform I find not.").

To respond like that I can only assume you did not read my post as I never said or even hinted to anything about works.

 

[Judith]

It is about sin and rebellion against God.

You cannot share the gospel and tell the lost about the cross and not deal with the reason Jesus was on the cross. To do so is to fail to share the gospel. Belief in God without turning from sin is no gospel at all. I am sure Joel Osteen would like it though.

Turning from sin is not repentance. That is a works salvation. Repentance is turning to God. Acts 20:21 Faith is placing that heart of repentance on Jesus as Lord.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Turning from sin is not repentance. That is a works salvation. Repentance is turning to God. Acts 20:21 Faith is placing that heart of repentance on Jesus as Lord.

:thumbsup: See? We can disagree one place and fully agree elsewhere. Neat, huh?

 

[Judith]

:thumbsup: See? We can disagree one place and fully agree elsewhere. Neat, huh?

Yes agreeing is when we are walking together. :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

You deny that there is a carnal Christian,

There is no such thing...correct:thumbs:

deny that we still have a sinful nature to deal with

,

where did I deny that?

but in that case, you would see things way that you have so in thpresented them!

I do not have a clue what this is....what word is this
[thpresented]

And please understand that a real Christian does NOT say "jesus saved me, not free to keep on sinning as i please", that is the LS strawman erected here

,

Many of your posts have an antinomian flavor to them ,and your failure to use scripture does not help.

I just don't see the lord who did so much to save us, to be so petty as to not be able to save us unto the very end, because we have at times chosen to sin...

what did Jesus save us from? show it from scripture. Con 1 asked for scripture before...did you offer any? or run away and hide?

 

[Revmitchell]

Turning from sin is not repentance. That is a works salvation. Repentance is turning to God. Acts 20:21 Faith is placing that heart of repentance on Jesus as Lord.

Works is a reference to OT law and has nothing to do wiht repentance.

 

[DHK]

Works is a reference to OT law and has nothing to do wiht repentance.

You are badly misinformed about "works" in NT theology. The COC has a works based salvation because it requires one to be baptized in order to be saved. Baptism is a work. By definition a work is anything that you do. It not simply a reference to OT law.

 

[Judith]

Works is a reference to OT law and has nothing to do wiht repentance.

Works is seeking to ovecome our faults/sins. Claiming one must repent of sin to be saved is works. The bible tells us what repentance is, in Acts 20:21, just believe it instead of changing it.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are badly misinformed about "works" in NT theology. The COC has a works based salvation because it requires one to be baptized in order to be saved. Baptism is a work. By definition a work is anything that you do. It not simply a reference to OT law.

Baptism is not required for salvation. Not because it is works but because God never required it. That is a bad argument.

 

[Revmitchell]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3340: μετανοέω

μετανοέω, μετάνω; future μετανοήσω; 1 aorist μετενόησα; from (Antiphon), Xenophon down; the Sept. several times for נִחַם; to change one's mind, i. e. to repent (to feel sorry that one has done this or that, Jonah 3:9), of having offended someone, Luke 17:3f; with ἐπί τίνι added (the dative of the wrong, Hebrew עַל, Amos 7:3; Joel 2:13; Jonah 3:10; Jonah 4:2), of (on account of) something (so Latinme paenitet alicujus rei), 2 Corinthians 12:21; used especially of those who, conscious of their sins and with manifest tokens of sorrow, are intent; on obtaining God's pardon; to repent (Latinpaenitentiam agere): μετανοῶ ἐν σάκκῳ καί σποδῷ, clothed in sackcloth and besprinkled with ashes, Matthew 11:21; Luke 10:13. to change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins: Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:15 (cf. Matthew 3:6 ἐξομολογούμενοι τάς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν; Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8 καρπούς ἀξίους τῆς μετανοίας, i. e. conduct worthy of a heart changed and abhorring sin); (Matthew 11:20; Mark 6:12); Luke 13:3, 5; Luke 15:7, 10; Luke 16:30; Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Revelation 2:5, 16; Revelation 3:3, 19; on the phrase μετανοεῖν εἰς τό κήρυγμα τίνος, Matthew 12:41 and Luke 11:32, see εἰς, B. II. 2 d.; (Winer's Grammar, 397 (371)). Since τό μετανοεῖν expresses mental direction, the termini from which and to which may be specified: ἀπό τῆς κακίας, to withdraw or turn one's soul from, etc. (cf. Winers Grammar, 622 (577); especially Buttmann, 322 (277)), Acts 8:22; ἐκ τίνος, Revelation 2:21; Revelation 9:20; Revelation 16:11 (see ἐκ, I. 6; (cf. Buttmann, 327 (281), and Winer's Grammar, as above)); μετανοεῖν καί ἐπιστρέφειν ἐπί τόν Θεόν, Acts 26:20; followed by an infinitive indicating purpose (Winer's Grammar, 318 (298)), Revelation 16:9. (Synonym: see μεταμέλομαι.)

 

[Revmitchell]

Repent - See the notes on Mat_3:2. Repentance implies sorrow for sin as committed against God, along with a purpose to forsake it. It is not merely a fear of the consequences of sin or of the wrath of God in hell. It is such a view of sin, as evil in itself, as to lead the mind to hate it and forsake it. Laying aside all view of the punishment of sin, the true penitent hates it. Even if sin were the means of procuring him happiness; if it would promote his gratification and be unattended with any future punishment, he would hate it and turn from it. The mere fact that it is evil, and that God hates it, is a sufficient reason why those who are truly penitent hate it and forsake it. False repentance dreads the consequences of sin; true repentance dreads sin itself. These persons whom Peter addressed had been merely alarmed; they were afraid of wrath, and especially of the wrath of the Messiah. They had no true sense of sin as an evil, but were simply afraid of punishment. This alarm Peter did not regard as by any means genuine repentance. Such conviction for sin would soon wear off, unless their repentance became thorough and complete. Hence, he told them to repent, to turn from sin, to exercise sorrow for it as an evil and bitter thing, and to express their sorrow in the proper manner. We may learn here:
(1) That there is no safety in mere conviction for sin: it may soon pass off, and leave the soul as thoughtless as before.
(2) there is no goodness or holiness in mere alarm or conviction. The devils ...tremble. A man may fear who yet has a firm purpose to do evil, if he can do it with impunity.
(3) many are greatly troubled and alarmed who never repent. There is no situation where souls are so easily deceived as here. Alarm is taken for repentance; trembling for godly sorrow; and the fear of wrath is taken to be the true fear of God.
(4) true repentance is the only thing in such a state of mind that can give any relief. An ingenuous confession of sin, a solemn purpose to forsake it, and a true hatred of it, is the only thing that can give the mind composure. Such is the constitution of the mind that nothing else will furnish relief. But the moment we are willing to make an open confession of guilt, the mind is delivered of its burden, and the convicted soul finds peace. Until this is done, and the hold on sin is broken, there can be no peace.
(5) we see here what direction is to be given to a convicted sinner. We are not to direct him to wait; nor to lead him to suppose that he is in a good way; nor to tell him to continue to seek; nor to call him a mourner; nor to take sides with him, as if God were wrong and harsh; nor to advise him to read, and search, and postpone the subject to a future time. We are to direct him to repent; to mourn over his sins, and to forsake them. Religion demands that he should at once surrender himself to God by genuine repentance; by confession that God is right and that he is wrong; and by a firm purpose to live a life of holiness.


Barnes Commentary

 

[Revmitchell]

Repent - Μετανοειτε. This was the matter of the preaching. The verb μετανοεω is either compounded of μετα, after, and νοειν to understand, which signifies that, after hearing such preaching, the sinner is led to understand, that the way he has walked in was the way of misery, death, and hell. Or the word may be derived from μετα after, and ανοια, madness, which intimates that the whole life of a sinner is no other than a continued course of madness and folly: and if to live in a constant opposition to all the dictates of true wisdom; to wage war with his own best interests in time and eternity; to provoke and insult the living God; and, by habitual sin, to prepare himself only for a state of misery, be evidences of insanity, every sinner exhibits them plentifully. It was from this notion of the word, that the Latins termed repentance resipiscentia, a growing wise again, from re and sapere; or, according to Tertullian, Resipiscentia, quasi receptio mentis ad se, restoring the mind to itself: Contra Marcion, lib. ii. Repentance, then, implies that a measure of Divine wisdom is communicated to the sinner, and that he thereby becomes wise to salvation. That his mind, purposes, opinions, and inclinations, are changed; and that, in consequence, there is a total change in his conduct. It need scarcely be remarked, that, in this state, a man feels deep anguish of soul, because he has sinned against God, unfitted himself for heaven, and exposed his soul to hell. Hence, a true penitent has that sorrow, whereby he forsakes sin, not only because it has been ruinous to his own soul, but because it has been offensive to God.


Clark Commentary

 

[Iconoclast]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3340: μετανοέω

μετανοέω, μετάνω; future μετανοήσω; 1 aorist μετενόησα; from (Antiphon), Xenophon down; the Sept. several times for נִחַם; to change one's mind, i. e. to repent (to feel sorry that one has done this or that, Jonah 3:9), of having offended someone, Luke 17:3f; with ἐπί τίνι added (the dative of the wrong, Hebrew עַל, Amos 7:3; Joel 2:13; Jonah 3:10; Jonah 4:2), of (on account of) something (so Latinme paenitet alicujus rei), 2 Corinthians 12:21; used especially of those who, conscious of their sins and with manifest tokens of sorrow, are intent; on obtaining God's pardon; to repent (Latinpaenitentiam agere): μετανοῶ ἐν σάκκῳ καί σποδῷ, clothed in sackcloth and besprinkled with ashes, Matthew 11:21; Luke 10:13. to change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins: Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:15 (cf. Matthew 3:6 ἐξομολογούμενοι τάς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν; Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8 καρπούς ἀξίους τῆς μετανοίας, i. e. conduct worthy of a heart changed and abhorring sin); (Matthew 11:20; Mark 6:12); Luke 13:3, 5; Luke 15:7, 10; Luke 16:30; Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Revelation 2:5, 16; Revelation 3:3, 19; on the phrase μετανοεῖν εἰς τό κήρυγμα τίνος, Matthew 12:41 and Luke 11:32, see εἰς, B. II. 2 d.; (Winer's Grammar, 397 (371)). Since τό μετανοεῖν expresses mental direction, the termini from which and to which may be specified: ἀπό τῆς κακίας, to withdraw or turn one's soul from, etc. (cf. Winers Grammar, 622 (577); especially Buttmann, 322 (277)), Acts 8:22; ἐκ τίνος, Revelation 2:21; Revelation 9:20; Revelation 16:11 (see ἐκ, I. 6; (cf. Buttmann, 327 (281), and Winer's Grammar, as above)); μετανοεῖν καί ἐπιστρέφειν ἐπί τόν Θεόν, Acts 26:20; followed by an infinitive indicating purpose (Winer's Grammar, 318 (298)), Revelation 16:9. (Synonym: see μεταμέλομαι.)

:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Repent - See the notes on Mat_3:2. Repentance implies sorrow for sin as committed against God, along with a purpose to forsake it. It is not merely a fear of the consequences of sin or of the wrath of God in hell. It is such a view of sin, as evil in itself, as to lead the mind to hate it and forsake it. Laying aside all view of the punishment of sin, the true penitent hates it. Even if sin were the means of procuring him happiness; if it would promote his gratification and be unattended with any future punishment, he would hate it and turn from it. The mere fact that it is evil, and that God hates it, is a sufficient reason why those who are truly penitent hate it and forsake it. False repentance dreads the consequences of sin; true repentance dreads sin itself. These persons whom Peter addressed had been merely alarmed; they were afraid of wrath, and especially of the wrath of the Messiah. They had no true sense of sin as an evil, but were simply afraid of punishment. This alarm Peter did not regard as by any means genuine repentance. Such conviction for sin would soon wear off, unless their repentance became thorough and complete. Hence, he told them to repent, to turn from sin, to exercise sorrow for it as an evil and bitter thing, and to express their sorrow in the proper manner. We may learn here:
(1) That there is no safety in mere conviction for sin: it may soon pass off, and leave the soul as thoughtless as before.
(2) there is no goodness or holiness in mere alarm or conviction. The devils ...tremble. A man may fear who yet has a firm purpose to do evil, if he can do it with impunity.
(3) many are greatly troubled and alarmed who never repent. There is no situation where souls are so easily deceived as here. Alarm is taken for repentance; trembling for godly sorrow; and the fear of wrath is taken to be the true fear of God.
(4) true repentance is the only thing in such a state of mind that can give any relief. An ingenuous confession of sin, a solemn purpose to forsake it, and a true hatred of it, is the only thing that can give the mind composure. Such is the constitution of the mind that nothing else will furnish relief. But the moment we are willing to make an open confession of guilt, the mind is delivered of its burden, and the convicted soul finds peace. Until this is done, and the hold on sin is broken, there can be no peace.
(5) we see here what direction is to be given to a convicted sinner. We are not to direct him to wait; nor to lead him to suppose that he is in a good way; nor to tell him to continue to seek; nor to call him a mourner; nor to take sides with him, as if God were wrong and harsh; nor to advise him to read, and search, and postpone the subject to a future time. We are to direct him to repent; to mourn over his sins, and to forsake them. Religion demands that he should at once surrender himself to God by genuine repentance; by confession that God is right and that he is wrong; and by a firm purpose to live a life of holiness.


Barnes Commentary

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[Reformed]

Works is seeking to ovecome our faults/sins. Claiming one must repent of sin to be saved is works. The bible tells us what repentance is, in Acts 20:21, just believe it instead of changing it.

You are incorrect. Revmitchell posted a series of good commentary quotes on repentance (metanoia). Repentance is something granted by God. It is a turning from sin. A person who comes to faith in Christ is making a turn; changing allegiance if you will. They are changing from following the prince of the power of the air -- Satan -- (Eph. 2:2) to following Christ.

You are making the mistake of thinking repentance is separate from the order of salvation. It is not. It is inherent to it and it is bequeathed by God as an act of grace on His part.

 

[DHK]

You are incorrect. Revmitchell posted a series of good commentary quotes on repentance (metanoia). Repentance is something granted by God. It is a turning from sin. A person who comes to faith in Christ is making a turn; changing allegiance if you will. They are changing from following the prince of the power of the air -- Satan -- (Eph. 2:2) to following Christ.

You are making the mistake of thinking repentance is separate from the order of salvation. It is not. It is inherent to it and it is bequeathed by God as an act of grace on His part.

I believe Judith is correct. Please show from the NT where "repentance from sin" is required for a person to be saved.
Out of all the posts that RM made and the many redundant definitions that he gave, the first from Thayer's is the primary definition, and as far as salvation is concerned is the only one we need be concerned with:

μετανοέω, μετάνω; future μετανοήσω; 1 aorist μετενόησα; from (Antiphon), Xenophon down; the Sept. several times for נִחַם; to change one's mind

It is not the work of repenting from one's sins that is needed.
It is the change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God. A change of attitude from rebellion against God to submission to God. That happens at the same time a person puts their faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord.