Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?

[Judith]

Can you quote me just one verse from the New Testament where it commands us that we must have total surrender in order to be saved?

We are not told to almost repent. acts 20:21 The term repent is impossible unless it is total. No one can almost turn to God.
Luke 6:45-49
Can you show me one verse that says we do not have to totally surrender?

 

[Yeshua1]

We are not told to almost repent. acts 20:21 The term repent is impossible unless it is total. No one can almost turn to God.
Luke 6:45-49
Can you show me one verse that says we do not have to totally surrender?

A sinner confesses that Jesus is GOD, we acknowledge that he is the messiah, and that comes ONLY because the Spirit Himself enables us to see Him as who he really is!

Confession is to Him being God, as he is already the lord over all he has saved!

The truth is that we receive jesus thru faith alone, saved by His grace alone, or is that truth no longer valid in Baptist churches now?

 

[Yeshua1]

I asked you 9 questions....answer them please before asking anymore questions ...or no dialog is really taking place....Failure to answer will result in me answering your posts in the same way...you respond to me ...or KYRED who also asks you to offer scripture....

You said one time that you offered scripture once and the other person did not agree with you: confused:

This is BB....does anyone agree with anyone ...or do we mostly disagree...

look at me and DHK...on these topics we are completely opposed to each other...but DHK offers his ideas with scripture....I disagree and offer scripture, he does the same......that is how we or others can learn...

random statements about..."I think this though" do not get us to scripture.

If you make statements without any scriptural support they are of little or no value.

I have answered Romans 6 question, and have answered your qiestion on how much of a sinner i think God wants me to bee!

what NT verse teaches you that one must have absolute surrender to jesus in order to be saved by him first?

Can a sinner be justified without commiting all things to Jesus right at point of salvation?

If there are ANY areas not sully commited to him, can we really be saved by Him?

 

[DHK]

We are not told to almost repent. acts 20:21 The term repent is impossible unless it is total. No one can almost turn to God.
Luke 6:45-49
Can you show me one verse that says we do not have to totally surrender?

First define repentance.
Second, in the NT, in relation to the gospel, where are we commanded to repent in order to have forgiveness of sins and eternal life?

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
What does Paul mean: testifying...repentance toward God?

The entire passage in Luke is spoken to Christ's disciples:
Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
--Are you suggesting his disciples needed to be saved?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

I have answered Romans 6 question, and have answered your qiestion on how much of a sinner i think God wants me to bee!

You did not answer...I asked you 9 questions...you have not answered.

 

[DHK]

Are you sinless? Remember what is written in 1John 1:8,10.
What do you attribute sin to? If you don't have an old nature then are you attributing your sin to your new nature, that is, the Holy Spirit?
How do you answer, Icon?

Going back to post #167, and speaking of avoiding questions or not answering them, would you mind answering this one Icon?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Going back to post #167, and speaking of avoiding questions or not answering them, would you mind answering this one Icon?

Are you sinless? Remember what is written in 1John 1:8,10.
What do you attribute sin to? If you don't have an old nature then are attributing your sin to your new nature, that is, the Holy Spirit?
How do you answer, Icon?

If you have followed this thread concerning sinless perfection..here is what we have; from post 120

Originally Posted by Yeshua1
Still see the logical conclusion that ONLY ones with full assurance are those who achieved the 'sinless perfection" that wesley spoke about

an answer in post 121 by jbh;

LS doesn't teach that anyone has to reach "sinless perfection."

in post 122 jbh answers you directly DHK

[No one will reach sinless perfection until we are all glorified. /QUOTE]

Lk2427 answers you directly DHK in post 125

Again, I don't think any Lordshippers are advocating sinless perfection.

and again in post 125;

The sinless perfection thing you seem to keep pushing on the doctrine is a strawman, in my opinion

someone else sees what you do..lol

P4Truth answers in post131

There is no such thing as sinless perfection this side of the sun -- 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us'. 1 John 1:8

Those here advocating LS means sinless perfection are in ignorance of LS and are erecting and attacking a straw man argument. This is unfortunately typical behavior of fundamentalism in particular:

Erect straw man. Attack straw man. Garner amen's. Get patted on the back for a great old-fashioned me

In post 133 RM replies

No one advocates sinless perfection that is an absurd claim. More importantly it is a dishonest characterization by those who oppose it.

post134

THat's not LS. No one teaches that people have to be perfect.

In post 136...I agree with p4truth that there is no sinless perfection

in post 137...I agree with RM...there is no sinless perfection
in post 138..I agree with jbh there is no sinless perfection
in post 164 ...I respond to y1;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeshua1 View Post
No, we rather are saying that total submission all the time to Jesus as Lord has NEVER been reached by any Christian, and that some holding to LS seem to indicate until one gets there, were not really saved!

Could you show a quote of anyone who says that...just one responsible person who says this???[/QUOTE]

then after all this you ask me;

Are you sinless? Remember what is written in 1John 1:8,10.
What do you attribute sin to? If you don't have an old nature then are attributing your sin to your new nature, that is, the Holy Spirit?
How do you answer, Icon?

you repeat yourself in post 186

Going back to post #167, and speaking of avoiding questions or not answering them, would you mind answering this one Icon?

you asked this question in several threads...here it is on npost 75 in the spirit baptism thread;

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK View Post
Are you sinless?
When you sin, do you blame your new nature, that is, the Holy Spirit residing in you?
Then who? Icon?
I thought you believed in Total Depravity. I guess not.

I and others have answered you on this several times. You are getting frustrated as your ideas have been exposed as false,
I understand

I finally had to back to 7/2/14 to find the answer that I gave you already that you rejected;
here it is-

Quote:
Was Paul unsaved because according to 1Cor.15:31, he testified "I die daily. Every day he "crucified the flesh."

He was conscious of the daily need to mortify sin....notice if was the flesh, the motions of sin in his members...here he says the same thing I am hammering away at you with.....take your time...read this slowly 5 or 6 times in a row;


5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth -- whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry --

6 because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience,

7 in which also ye -- ye did walk once, when ye lived in them;

8 but now put off, even ye, the whole -- anger, wrath, malice, evil-speaking, filthy talking -- out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices,



10 and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him;


the old man..once again is dead...the new man...IS ACTIVE,made alive by God.



Quote:
What did he mean:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

he is a new man...in the old body of flesh.......

the old man...in that same body of flesh, when he was unsaved...obeyed the motions of sin...

The new man...in that same body of flesh...now mortifys the motions of sin.

he does not get freed from that body of sin and remaining corruption until he leaves that body to be in the presence of the LORD. That is the summary of Romans 7:24-25
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,

23 and I behold another law in my members,

warring against the law of my mind,

and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin

that [is] in my members.
24 A wretched man I [am]!

who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord;
so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God,

and with the flesh, the law of sin

Let's see how Paul sums this up.....
8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus,

who walk not according to the flesh,

but according to the Spirit;

2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus

did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;


The result;

4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us,

who do not walk according to the flesh,

but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind;

and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;

6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death,


and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;


I can go on .... but you can read how once again...he speaks of only two men and our duty to mortify sin

12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die;


and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;

14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
__________________


then in post 45...you just sidestepped my answer...so how many times do you want me to answer the same questions DHK...but I understand what you are doing...
you spread it out over three different threads so no one will look it all up, or follow your maze....well I just did it for the reader:laugh::wavey:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=94020&page=5

 

[convicted1]

DHK





If you have followed this thread concerning sinless perfection..here is what we have; from post 120



an answer in post 121 by jbh;



in post 122 jbh answers you directly DHK

No one will reach sinless perfection until we are all glorified.

Lk2427 answers you directly DHK in post 125


and again in post 125;


someone else sees what you do..lol

P4Truth answers in post131


In post 133 RM replies

post134

In post 136...I agree with p4truth that there is no sinless perfection

in post 137...I agree with RM...there is no sinless perfection
in post 138..I agree with jbh there is no sinless perfection
in post 164 ...I respond to y1;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeshua1 View Post
No, we rather are saying that total submission all the time to Jesus as Lord has NEVER been reached by any Christian, and that some holding to LS seem to indicate until one gets there, were not really saved!

Could you show a quote of anyone who says that...just one responsible person who says this???[/QUOTE]

then after all this you ask me;


you repeat yourself in post 186

you asked this question in several threads...here it is on npost 75 in the spirit baptism thread;



I finally had to back to 7/2/14 to find the answer that I gave you already that you rejected;
here it is-

Quote:
Was Paul unsaved because according to 1Cor.15:31, he testified "I die daily. Every day he "crucified the flesh."

He was conscious of the daily need to mortify sin....notice if was the flesh, the motions of sin in his members...here he says the same thing I am hammering away at you with.....take your time...read this slowly 5 or 6 times in a row;


5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth -- whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry --

6 because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience,

7 in which also ye -- ye did walk once, when ye lived in them;

8 but now put off, even ye, the whole -- anger, wrath, malice, evil-speaking, filthy talking -- out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices,



10 and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him;


the old man..once again is dead...the new man...IS ACTIVE,made alive by God.



Quote:
What did he mean:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

he is a new man...in the old body of flesh.......

the old man...in that same body of flesh, when he was unsaved...obeyed the motions of sin...

The new man...in that same body of flesh...now mortifys the motions of sin.

he does not get freed from that body of sin and remaining corruption until he leaves that body to be in the presence of the LORD. That is the summary of Romans 7:24-25
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,

23 and I behold another law in my members,

warring against the law of my mind,

and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin

that [is] in my members.
24 A wretched man I [am]!

who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord;
so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God,

and with the flesh, the law of sin

Let's see how Paul sums this up.....
8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus,

who walk not according to the flesh,

but according to the Spirit;

2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus

did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;


The result;

4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us,

who do not walk according to the flesh,

but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind;

and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;

6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death,


and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;


I can go on .... but you can read how once again...he speaks of only two men and our duty to mortify sin

12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die;


and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;

14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
__________________


then in post 45...you just sidestepped my answer...so how many times do you want me to answer the same questions DHK...but I understand what you are doing...
you spread it out over three different threads so no one will look it all up, or follow your maze....well I just did it for the reader:laugh::wavey:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=94020&page=5

 

[Judith]

First define repentance.
Second, in the NT, in relation to the gospel, where are we commanded to repent in order to have forgiveness of sins and eternal life?

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
What does Paul mean: testifying...repentance toward God?

The entire passage in Luke is spoken to Christ's disciples:
Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
--Are you suggesting his disciples needed to be saved?

You need to answer the questions I asked you first before asking me more.

 

[Judith]

A sinner confesses that Jesus is GOD, we acknowledge that he is the messiah, and that comes ONLY because the Spirit Himself enables us to see Him as who he really is!

Confession is to Him being God, as he is already the lord over all he has saved!

The truth is that we receive jesus thru faith alone, saved by His grace alone, or is that truth no longer valid in Baptist churches now?

Your response does not agree with scripture.

 

[DHK]

You need to answer the questions I asked you first before asking me more.

I answered your question completely and then I answered using the Scripture that you gave in your post, and showed how you used them out of context.

There is not one Scripture that demands one surrender totally in order to be saved. If that were necessary then salvation would be based on works and not on grace through faith (Eph.2:8,9).

 

[Yeshua1]

Your response does not agree with scripture.

Which answer?

that Jesus is God, or that a sinner is saved by grace alone, thru faith in jesus alone?

 

[Yeshua1]

Apostle paul described his condition as a SAVED person in Romans, as he was unable to do what he desired, as his flesh was still there, but he found victory by yeilding not to those sinful desires but to the Holy Spirit!

And "If jesus is not Lord over ALL areas of your life, then he is Lord over none" means what?

 

[jbh28]

Apostle paul described his condition as a SAVED person in Romans, as he was unable to do what he desired, as his flesh was still there, but he found victory by yeilding not to those sinful desires but to the Holy Spirit!

And "If jesus is not Lord over ALL areas of your life, then he is Lord over none" means what?

You mean Paul didn't come to a point of sinless perfection? He had sinful desires and sometimes did those sinful desires. Good, no one has said that they believe anyone has to come to sinless perfection. I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp?

 

[Yeshua1]

You mean Paul didn't come to a point of sinless perfection? He had sinful desires and sometimes did those sinful desires. Good, no one has said that they believe anyone has to come to sinless perfection. I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp?

Getting to the place where jesus is actually Lord over all areas of your life is a state of sinless perfection, correct?

 

[jbh28]

Getting to the place where jesus is actually Lord over all areas of your life is a state of sinless perfection, correct?

LS doesn't teach that people will be in sinless perfection. Jesus being my Lord over all areas of my life also doesn't mean that I never sin. There will be times that I sin. We all sin.

 

[DHK]

LS doesn't teach that people will be in sinless perfection. Jesus being my Lord over all areas of my life also doesn't mean that I never sin. There will be times that I sin. We all sin.

If MacArthur defines LS as "total submission to Christ as Lord," then if one at any time is not totally committed he would be sinning. Thus the aspect of being sinless. It is a logical conclusion but never outwardly admitted.

 

[jbh28]

If MacArthur defines LS as "total submission to Christ as Lord," then if one at any time is not totally committed he would be sinning. Thus the aspect of being sinless. It is a logical conclusion but never outwardly admitted.

It's not the logical conclusion. no one including MacArthur believes anyone has to be sinless. To say such is to misrepresent. There are many totally submitted to Jesus Christ, yet no one is without sinning. We are all growing to be more like Christ every day. No one teaches that the moment you are saved you are sinless, nor you have to be sinless to be saved or any way shape or form.

 

[DHK]

It's not the logical conclusion. no one including MacArthur believes anyone has to be sinless. To say such is to misrepresent. There are many totally submitted to Jesus Christ, yet no one is without sinning. We are all growing to be more like Christ every day. No one teaches that the moment you are saved you are sinless, nor you have to be sinless to be saved or any way shape or form.

"There are many Christians that are totally committed to Christ."
However, once they sin, are they still totally committed to Christ?

But we aren't talking of the saved; we are talking of those that stand as criminals in the face of God, slaves to sin, wretched, ungodly-like pagans, children of wrath, children of disobedience, children of the prince of the power of this air, on their way to Hell with no one to stop them but you and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That is who we are talking about.

Then consider that LS advocates say to them: "You must be totally submitted to Christ as Lord if you want to be saved."
Totally submitted?
They don't know where to start cleaning up their lives, nevermind being totally committed. There must be progressive sanctification. Total submission on the part of the new believer is entire sanctification or sinlessness. It is an impossibility.
If the person has addiction problems then what?
Anger issues?
Relational and family problems?
Problems with "organized religion," perhaps?
And the list goes on and on.
He cannot be totally submitted to Christ. He needs to be discipled. The Great Commission, properly translated would say: "Go and disciple all nations..."

 

[jbh28]

"There are many Christians that are totally committed to Christ."
However, once they sin, are they still totally committed to Christ?

Yes no one is sinless.

But we aren't talking of the saved; we are talking of those that stand as criminals in the face of God, slaves to sin, wretched, ungodly-like pagans, children of wrath, children of disobedience, children of the prince of the power of this air, on their way to Hell with no one to stop them but you and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That is who we are talking about.

No, we are talking about the saved. Unsaved people do not have Jesus as their Lord.

Then consider that LS advocates say to them: "You must be totally submitted to Christ as Lord if you want to be saved."
Totally submitted?
They don't know where to start cleaning up their lives, nevermind being totally committed. There must be progressive sanctification. Total submission on the part of the new believer is entire sanctification or sinlessness. It is an impossibility.

It's not sinlessness. LS beleives in progressive sanctification. It's a huge part of it because progressive sanctification is growth, which is what a Christian does.

If the person has addiction problems then what?
Anger issues?
Relational and family problems?
Problems with "organized religion," perhaps?
And the list goes on and on.
He cannot be totally submitted to Christ. He needs to be discipled. The Great Commission, properly translated would say: "Go and disciple all nations..."

Repentance happens at salvation, the results of repentance happens after salvation. No one teaches that anyone has to be good, clean up their act or any other way to put it in order to be saved. So please, stop trying to build your straw man. Everyone here has corrected you, but yet you keep trying to misrepresent. If LS is wrong, just show how it's wrong in what LS actually teaches. What you have put here, no one believes. From this point on, you will be just lying if you keep saying what you said above since you have been corrected on more than one occasion. It's not Christlike to lie about other believers in what they believe.