Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?

[The Archangel]

Dr. MacArthur’s position on Lordship Salvation has been made very clear in his published book, THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS. He has also made statements in some of his other published writings and tapes that relate to this subject, some of which are quoted below:

"The Greek word translated 'belief' is not referring merely to intellectual attainment or mental acquiescence but a wholehearted acceptance of everything that is implied in the claims of Christ. You need to believe that Jesus is God and that He died for your sins, committing your whole life to Him in sacrifice and serving Him as Lord." (Assurance of Victory--1 John 5, Moody Press, p.12).

"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).

"Saving faith is a placing of oneself totally in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 1-8, p. 205).

Cited: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/lordshjm.htm

Statements like these complicate the simple gospel message.

No. Statements like these are the Gospel message.

Salvation is the acceptance of the free gift of salvation through faith or belief in Christ as Lord and Savior.

No. It's more than this. The above description makes no mention of conversion. Without conversion, no "believer" is a true believer.

It is not commitment, a work; sacrifice, another work; serving, another work; submission, another work, etc.
Salvation is receiving not serving or giving.

Salvation isn't just a commitment, but it includes commitment. Salvation isn't just a work, but it includes work, sacrifice, serving, submission, etc. Salvation includes receiving, but it also includes serving and giving.

By your logic, you should have no problem with a homosexual "believer" in an active, committed relationship being part of your church. And, by your logic, you shouldn't preach to him to change. In fact, by your own logic, no one should even try to stop sinning.

By your logic it would be fine for believers to be sexually immoral or adulterers or greedy or drunks or swindlers. But, of course, this bears no resemblance to what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

The people who are "wrongdoers" will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In other words, those who practice--with impunity--the things Paul listed here simply aren't believers. Notice the "such were some of you." They are no longer that way. They have been converted.

The Archangel

 

[Reformed]

No. Statements like these are the Gospel message.



No. It's more than this. The above description makes no mention of conversion. Without conversion, no "believer" is a true believer.



Salvation isn't just a commitment, but it includes commitment. Salvation isn't just a work, but it includes work, sacrifice, serving, submission, etc. Salvation includes receiving, but it also includes serving and giving.

By your logic, you should have no problem with a homosexual "believer" in an active, committed relationship being part of your church. And, by your logic, you shouldn't preach to him to change. In fact, by your own logic, no one should even try to stop sinning.

By your logic it would be fine for believers to be sexually immoral or adulterers or greedy or drunks or swindlers. But, of course, this bears no resemblance to what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

The people who are "wrongdoers" will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In other words, those who practice--with impunity--the things Paul listed here simply aren't believers. Notice the "such were some of you." They are no longer that way. They have been converted.

The Archangel

Bingo!

The champions of "free grace" are afraid the call to Christian obedience will result in their having to forsake their own pet sins.

 

[DHK]

No. Statements like these are the Gospel message.

I refer you to 1Cor.15:1-4.
The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as Paul defines it. This is the message that they "received" to be saved. Salvation is a free gift as is eternal life.

No. It's more than this. The above description makes no mention of conversion. Without conversion, no "believer" is a true believer.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. When one believes he is converted. That is when one is converted. God is the one who converts the person at the time of salvation.

Salvation isn't just a commitment, but it includes commitment. Salvation isn't just a work, but it includes work, sacrifice, serving, submission, etc. Salvation includes receiving, but it also includes serving and giving.

It seems you have been taught well by Billy Graham. He stressed to those in his audiences to "make a commitment to Christ tonight."
The Bible says:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves..."
It is not of yourself, not of commitment, work, serving, sacrificing, etc.
It is a gift to be received and that is all. Inasmuch as the Catholics add water and believe in baptismal regeneration, you have added so much more and turned salvation into a works salvation also.

By your logic, you should have no problem with a homosexual "believer" in an active, committed relationship being part of your church. And, by your logic, you shouldn't preach to him to change. In fact, by your own logic, no one should even try to stop sinning.

Are you against a homosexual coming to Christ? If he does then the Holy Spirit should effect a change in his life that he will change and leave that lifestyle.
The accusation of legalism is thrown around a lot here.
Do we present the gospel to a person believing it is the most important thing in the world that that person receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
Or, are we so legalistic that we don't present the gospel to anyone unless we see that they clean up their life first. We become their judge. They first must give up their sin; then we give them opportunity to be saved. Is that right? Is that the Bible way of doing things?
Who changes people? You or the Holy Spirit?

By your logic it would be fine for believers to be sexually immoral or adulterers or greedy or drunks or swindlers.

Moses was a murderer.
David was both adulterer and a murderer.
Noah was a drunkard.
Did all of these lose their salvation??

Those in Corinth were saved, the sanctified in Christ, and yet in every chapter of the First Epistle, Paul rebukes them for their carnal actions in some area of their lives: divisiveness, false teaching, incest, taking one another to court, marital problems, idolatry, abuse of the Lord's Table, abuse of the Spiritual Gifts, and even a denial of the resurrection.

But, of course, this bears no resemblance to what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

The people who are "wrongdoers" will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In other words, those who practice--with impunity--the things Paul listed here simply aren't believers. Notice the "such were some of you." They are no longer that way. They have been converted.

Indeed they had been converted. Repenting of their sin wasn't part of their conversion, however. The Bible does not say one must repent of their sins in order to be saved. That is a false doctrine.

 

[Yeshua1]

What area of your life is Jesus not Lord over?

How much sin do you want to be able to commit?

are some sins acceptable sins?

is holiness optional?

why attempt to avoid sin at all?

When paul asked;
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

You are speaking here the same way those against the Gospel according to paul!

Should all of us desire to live for jesus 24/7 in the right way, to put away all know sin areas/repent and forsake them fully?

yes, but has anyone ever reached that state?

 

[Revmitchell]

Should all of us desire to live for jesus 24/7 in the right way, to put away all know sin areas/repent and forsake them fully?

yes,

And that right there is what LS is all about.

but has anyone ever reached that state?

Absolutely no one has suggested this.

 

[DHK]

Absolutely no one has suggested this.

MacArthur comes pretty close doesn't he?

In order to be saved:

"Saving faith is a placing of oneself totally in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 1-8, p. 205).

 

[Revmitchell]

MacArthur comes pretty close doesn't he?

In order to be saved:

No he doesn't. That is simply your twisting of his words.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

MacArthur comes pretty close doesn't he?

In order to be saved:

"Saving faith is a placing of oneself totally in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 1-8, p. 205).

This theology you are holding makes you say this...
What is wrong with someone being totally submitted to Jesus as LORD???

Is this a bad thing? If Jesus is our Lord and King....are you saying there is ever a time we should not be submitted to His Divine authority???

I really think your ideas are off the reservation on this DHK.

 

[Iconoclast]

What area of your life is Jesus not Lord over?

How much sin do you want to be able to commit?

are some sins acceptable sins?

is holiness optional?

why attempt to avoid sin at all?

When paul asked;
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

You are speaking here the same way those against the Gospel according to paul!

Should all of us desire to live for jesus 24/7 in the right way

,

Yes...this is the desire of every Christian: thumbsup: We are saved....from our sins...not in our sins

I asked you these questions for a reason. I wanted to see you answer each question individually so I could better understand what you are thinking.
Could you answer each question briefly...offer a scripture if you would.

to put away all know sin areas/repent and forsake them fully?

Yes...that is a saving faith...salvation from sin.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

yes, but has anyone ever reached that state?

yes...only inspector javeat...but he only maintained it for 29 seconds until he read one of my posts...then he lost it

RM answered you as well as everyone else...can you show where anyone believes this at all? If you cannot...do not post it again as it keeps you from focusing on the real issues.

 

[DHK]

DHK




This theology you are holding makes you say this...
What is wrong with someone being totally submitted to Jesus as LORD???

Is this a bad thing? If Jesus is our Lord and King....are you saying there is ever a time we should not be submitted to His Divine authority???

I really think your ideas are off the reservation on this DHK.

You have a right to as many thoughts as you like Icon.
But if you can't back them up with the Bible, then they are not Scriptural thoughts are they?

What does the Bible say?
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Nowhere does it say submit to him.
Nowhere does it say serve him.
Nowhere does it even say you must repent of all your sins.

These are not requirements of salvation. If they are then salvation is a works-based salvation.
Salvation is a gift with no works attached.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Archangel made a very nice presentation to you...lets check your response:thumbsup:

I refer you to 1Cor.15:1-4.

okay lets look.....

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as Paul defines it.

wrong....the death, burial and resurrection are the historical facts of the gospel....but you omit what Paul repeats twice;;;

according to the scriptures

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


That would include all Archangel suggested to you as part of it.

This is the message that they "received" to be saved. Salvation is a free gift as is eternal life.

sometimes the preaching included the ot scripture making a full presentation of the gospel...

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. When one believes he is converted. That is when one is converted. God is the one who converts the person at the time of salvation.

yes.. regeneration happens at that same point in time as God grants repentance and faith!

It seems you have been taught well by Billy Graham. He stressed to those in his audiences to "make a commitment to Christ tonight."

believers are committed to Jesus...day by day

The Bible says:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves..."
It is not of yourself,[B] not of commitment[/B],

so Billy Graham was wrong after all...which is it DHK? you are all over the place.

work, serving, sacrificing, etc.
It is a gift to be received and that is all. Inasmuch as the Catholics add water and believe in baptismal regeneration, you have added so much more and turned salvation into a works salvation also.

strawman alert
not one of us believes salvation by works...

Are you against a homosexual coming to Christ?

he did not say that...did he?

Or, are we so legalistic that we don't present the gospel to anyone unless we see that they clean up their life first. We become their judge. They first must give up their sin; then we give them opportunity to be saved. Is that right? Is that the Bible way of doing things?

more straw added to the obligatory strawman:sleeping_2:

Who changes people? You or the Holy Spirit?

Cals believe it is the Spirit

 

[DHK]

Cals believe it is the Spirit

If that were true, then those of you believing in LS, wouldn't demand repenting of sin, submitting, committing, serving, etc., before or as a requirement of salvation. You have turned the grace of God in salvation into works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is quite evident it can't be both ways.

 

[Iconoclast]

If that were true, then those of you believing in LS, wouldn't demand repenting of sin, submitting, committing, serving, etc., before or as a requirement of salvation. You have turned the grace of God in salvation into works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is quite evident it can't be both ways.

Yes...you must have it both ways to have the biblical salvation

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
:wavey::wavey:

 

[Revmitchell]

If that were true, then those of you believing in LS, wouldn't demand repenting of sin, submitting, committing, serving, etc., before or as a requirement of salvation. You have turned the grace of God in salvation into works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is quite evident it can't be both ways.

You don't know what works is.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is not enough then to have some vague knowledge of Christ, or to engagein airy speculations, as they say, and to be able to talk a lot about him, but he must have his seat in our hearts within, so that we are unfeignedly joined to him, and with true affection.~John Wesley

 

[DHK]

You don't know what works is.

You are more than welcome to look it up in the dictionary.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are more than welcome to look it up in the dictionary.

Well there you go. That is why you do not know what it is.

 

[DHK]

Well there you go. That is why you do not know what it is.

Salvation is not of works. A work is anything one does--anything. One doesn't need a dictionary to figure that out.

The Church of Christ believes that baptism is necessary for salvation. That is salvation by works. Baptism is a work that is a requirement in their eyes for salvation.
In your eyes, the eyes of LS advocates: submission, obedience, serving, dedicating--are all works. It is no better than the COC who demand baptism. Salvation is by faith. Whatever happened to Sola Fide? Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works--any kind of works. It is not of yourself.

 

[convicted1]

Salvation is not of works. A work is anything one does--anything. One doesn't need a dictionary to figure that out.

The Church of Christ believes that baptism is necessary for salvation. That is salvation by works. Baptism is a work that is a requirement in their eyes for salvation.
In your eyes, the eyes of LS advocates: submission, obedience, serving, dedicating--are all works. It is no better than the COC who demand baptism. Salvation is by faith. Whatever happened to Sola Fide? Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works--any kind of works. It is not of yourself.

Oh precious Don Quixote, you are fighting with the windmills in your mind. You are fighting against a monster of your imagination, that isn't anywhere near what you're saying it is. We are required to be about our Father's business. The only thing we can do to garner salvation is to have faith and repentance, both of which are gifts of God. He is Lord of our life, whether we are a sheep or goat.

 

[DHK]

Oh precious Don Quixote, you are fighting with the windmills in your mind. You are fighting against a monster of your imagination, that isn't anywhere near what you're saying it is. We are required to be about our Father's business. The only thing we can do to garner salvation is to have faith and repentance, both of which are gifts of God. He is Lord of our life, whether we are a sheep or goat.

Christ is Lord of all (as in creation), whether we like it or not.
In a new believer there are no doubt areas of his which are not under submission of the "Lordship of Christ." He is not a mature Christian. If he is you have just denied progressive sanctification.
To require total submission for salvation is not biblical, and again a denial of progressive sanctification.
It also invites the heresy of a works-based salvation.