Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?

[jbh28]

Those holding to LS doctrine do mean well, and they are correct to regard being a Christian is much more than someone saying they "gave their heart to jesus" tears ago and stayed the same though, BUT..

Still see the logical conclusion that ONLY ones with full assurance are those who achieved the 'sinless perfection" that wesley spoke about!

LS doesn't teach that anyone has to reach "sinless perfection."

 

[jbh28]

A citizen must learn the laws of the country first. It may take him some time before he has mastered all the laws.

Very true. Growth is the key. Believers are not perfect, but grow. Not all at the same rate, but grow.

2 Corinthians 3:18 "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,[a] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

No one will reach sinless perfection until we are all glorified.

 

[Yeshua1]

LS doesn't teach that anyone has to reach "sinless perfection."

But if you need to have Jesus as ther Lord over all aspects of your life before real salvation actually happened, when would any of us get saved then?

 

[DHK]

Very true. Growth is the key. Believers are not perfect, but grow. Not all at the same rate, but grow.

2 Corinthians 3:18 "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,[a] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

No one will reach sinless perfection until we are all glorified.

I quote from John MacArthur because it is with him that LS seems to have started. I quote from Washer, because it is with him that LS was popularized. He is a well known evangelist and travels extensively preaching this message.

That being said, both of these men expect that at the point of salvation a believer needs to both be a disciple and a Christian at the same time. The implication of that, unashamedly proclaimed by MacArthur, is that the new believer must be willing to give up all and follow Christ, not just to "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved." It is not enough, according to him, to accept salvation as a gift. He must work as a disciple. I consider that borderline works salvation.
OTOH, he considers it having the ability to see fruit in the new believers life. But we both know that fruit doesn't come immediately. It is a process, a process we call sanctification.

 

[Luke2427]

MacArthur is fairly close to the same position. There are actually quite a few. It is not hard to find in a search.

I don't believe it is true:
"If he is not Lord of all, he is not Lord at all."
--Not everyone grows up in a Christian family and knows the implications of becoming a Christian. I didn't. When I got saved I knew that Christ was my Savior and that my sins were eternally forgiven, and that is about it. So, do you sit in condemnation of my salvation, then?
I had to grow as a Christian (a process I knew much later in life called sanctification) that Christ needed to be Lord of every area. That wasn't immediate. It isn't for most people in my experience. To make it so is to make salvation a works-based salvation IMO.
It goes like this: You must trust Christ as your Saviour on the condition that you make him Lord of every area of your life.
I consider that a heretical teaching. It is works-based salvation.

So now you question my salvation, and the salvation of many others. You ought to be ashamed. That is what is wrong of this erroneous doctrine. You appear to be judge, jury and executioner (in the place of God) as to who is saved and who is not), a position that God never gave you.

That is the natural and logical conclusion of this doctrine. If you have been following the discussion with Icon, that is where it has led him.

He is Lord of all for he is our Creator. Nothing can escape him.
If you wanted to be a citizen of the Netherlands, you would have to forsake your American citizenship, submit to the King of the Netherlands, and to all the laws of the government of the Netherlands. The King would be your sovereign lord. As a good citizen you would obey your lord. But you could choose to disobey him. Depending on how much you disobey him you would face a penalty--fines, jail time, etc. But you would still be a citizen. The king expects obedience. He is Lord over all--all of Netherlands and over you. Whether you obey him in all things is your choice. If you don't, you may face certain consequences.
The same is true in Christianity.
--We are citizens of his kingdom. If we disobey our king we don't lose our salvation, but we will be chastised. He is our Lord whether we obey him or not.

That is true, and oft times they don't obey. We obey out of love.

A citizen must learn the laws of the country first. It may take him some time before he has mastered all the laws.

Again, I don't think any Lordshippers are advocating sinless perfection.

Lordship salvation is about recognizing the ruling rights of King Jesus, confessing him as Lord and being sanctified day by day, more and more molded into his likeness.

Some may only ever bear 30 fold, some 60 fold and some an hundred fold. But all believers bear fruit.

That is lordship salvation.

The sinless perfection thing you seem to keep pushing on the doctrine is a strawman, in my opinion.

 

[Reformed]

This thread has exceeded ten pages. Shouldn't it be closed?

 

[Iconoclast]

This thread has exceeded ten pages. Shouldn't it be closed?

maybe...but they are hoping DHK will come around first:thumbsup::laugh::wavey:

 

[kyredneck]

Lol, there's only certain toes that it has to step on before it will get closed....

 

[Iconoclast]

But if you need to have Jesus as ther Lord over all aspects of your life before real salvation actually happened, when would any of us get saved then?

What area of your life is Jesus not Lord over?

How much sin do you want to be able to commit?

are some sins acceptable sins?

is holiness optional?

why attempt to avoid sin at all?

When paul asked;
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

do you answer yes of course we can...we are under grace

 

[Reformed]

Lol, there's only certain toes that it has to step on before it will get closed....

I was being cheeky. My last thread was killed at 10 pages. I wonder why? Actually I don't. I know why.

 

[preacher4truth]

Those holding to LS doctrine do mean well, and they are correct to regard being a Christian is much more than someone saying they "gave their heart to jesus" tears ago and stayed the same though, BUT..

Still see the logical conclusion that ONLY ones with full assurance are those who achieved the 'sinless perfection" that wesley spoke about!

There is no such thing as sinless perfection this side of the sun -- 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us'. 1 John 1:8

Those here advocating LS means sinless perfection are in ignorance of LS and are erecting and attacking a straw man argument. This is unfortunately typical behavior of fundamentalism in particular:

Erect straw man. Attack straw man. Garner amen's. Get patted on the back for a great old-fashioned message. :love2:

Preaching fodder to garner amen's is more important than actual truth to too many of them.

 

[evangelist6589]

I quote from John MacArthur because it is with him that LS seems to have started. I quote from Washer, because it is with him that LS was popularized. He is a well known evangelist and travels extensively preaching this message.

That being said, both of these men expect that at the point of salvation a believer needs to both be a disciple and a Christian at the same time. The implication of that, unashamedly proclaimed by MacArthur, is that the new believer must be willing to give up all and follow Christ, not just to "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved." It is not enough, according to him, to accept salvation as a gift. He must work as a disciple. I consider that borderline works salvation.
OTOH, he considers it having the ability to see fruit in the new believers life. But we both know that fruit doesn't come immediately. It is a process, a process we call sanctification.

Not exactly. I just read a book from 1982 that has LS all over it and Mac was not the author.

 

[Revmitchell]

Those holding to LS doctrine do mean well, and they are correct to regard being a Christian is much more than someone saying they "gave their heart to jesus" tears ago and stayed the same though, BUT..

Still see the logical conclusion that ONLY ones with full assurance are those who achieved the 'sinless perfection" that wesley spoke about!

No one advocates sinless perfection that is an absurd claim. More importantly it is a dishonest characterization by those who oppose it.

 

[jbh28]

But if you need to have Jesus as ther Lord over all aspects of your life before real salvation actually happened, when would any of us get saved then?

THat's not LS. No one teaches that people have to be perfect. No one teaches that anything happens before salvation. What is taught is that when a person is saved, they believe in the Lord and Savior, not just Savior. They grow. They mature. Not all at the same rate. No one teaches that you have to have any works before salvation.

 

[jbh28]

I quote from John MacArthur because it is with him that LS seems to have started. I quote from Washer, because it is with him that LS was popularized. He is a well known evangelist and travels extensively preaching this message.

That being said, both of these men expect that at the point of salvation a believer needs to both be a disciple and a Christian at the same time. The implication of that, unashamedly proclaimed by MacArthur, is that the new believer must be willing to give up all and follow Christ, not just to "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved." It is not enough, according to him, to accept salvation as a gift. He must work as a disciple. I consider that borderline works salvation.
OTOH, he considers it having the ability to see fruit in the new believers life. But we both know that fruit doesn't come immediately. It is a process, a process we call sanctification.

I don't being willing to do something is works salvation. I do believe that all believers are disciples. Though as you said, it's a process. No one starts off perfect. If I understand correctly, MacArthur would be talking about a person that accepts salvation, but has no intention of ever following Christ. Of that I would agree. If one has to be perfect or have to do anything prior to salvation, then I would reject such a teaching.

The bolded section above is key. It is a process. It's a process that comes from believers. When you never see growth, nor any desire for growth, it's probably because theirs no truth belief there.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no such thing as sinless perfection this side of the sun -- 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us'. 1 John 1:8

Those here advocating LS means sinless perfection are in ignorance of LS and are erecting and attacking a straw man argument. This is unfortunately typical behavior of fundamentalism in particular:

Erect straw man. Attack straw man. Garner amen's. Get patted on the back for a great old-fashioned message.

Preaching fodder to garner amen's is more important than actual truth to too many of them.

:thumbs::applause::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

No one advocates sinless perfection that is an absurd claim. More importantly it is a dishonest characterization by those who oppose it.

:wavey::thumbs::applause::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

THat's not LS. No one teaches that people have to be perfect. No one teaches that anything happens before salvation. What is taught is that when a person is saved, they believe in the Lord and Savior, not just Savior. They grow. They mature. Not all at the same rate. No one teaches that you have to have any works before salvation.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

I was being cheeky. My last thread was killed at 10 pages. I wonder why? Actually I don't. I know why.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

I don't being willing to do something is works salvation. I do believe that all believers are disciples. Though as you said, it's a process. No one starts off perfect. If I understand correctly, MacArthur would be talking about a person that accepts salvation, but has no intention of ever following Christ. Of that I would agree. If one has to be perfect or have to do anything prior to salvation, then I would reject such a teaching.

The bolded section above is key. It is a process. It's a process that comes from believers. When you never see growth, nor any desire for growth, it's probably because theirs no truth belief there.

Dr. MacArthur’s position on Lordship Salvation has been made very clear in his published book, THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS. He has also made statements in some of his other published writings and tapes that relate to this subject, some of which are quoted below:
"The Greek word translated 'belief' is not referring merely to intellectual attainment or mental acquiescence but a wholehearted acceptance of everything that is implied in the claims of Christ. You need to believe that Jesus is God and that He died for your sins, committing your whole life to Him in sacrifice and serving Him as Lord." (Assurance of Victory--1 John 5, Moody Press, p.12).
"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).
"Saving faith is a placing of oneself totally in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 1-8, p. 205).

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/lordshjm.htm


Statements like these complicate the simple gospel message. Salvation is the acceptance of the free gift of salvation through faith or belief in Christ as Lord and Savior.
It is not commitment, a work; sacrifice, another work; serving, another work; submission, another work, etc.
Salvation is receiving not serving or giving.