Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?

[Winman]

Winman once again you get the verse wrong...it says work OUT your salvation...it does not say....work FOR it.....how you miss this is a wonder:laugh:

Oh, I agree, it is not saying to work for salvation, but neither is it saying you must work to prove you are saved.
.

there is no luck....just providence

Well, let's hope you work enough to prove to God and others you are saved. You don't want to come up short like those folks in Mat 7;

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These folks were calling Jesus "Lord" in fact, twice it says they called Jesus, "Lord, Lord". So these persons put an extreme emphasis on the Lordship of Christ.

They also did many works in Jesus's name, they went everywhere and prophesied in his name, they cast out devils in his name, and did many wonderful works in Jesus's name.

And they were as lost as a turkey on Thanksgiving.

 

[convicted1]

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Emphasis mine...


God saved us to do what? Good works. Not that we do them to be saved, stay saved, keep saved, &c. Our works make manifest who we are working for. God didn't save us just so that we could go to church on sunday morning, evening and wednesday evening. We are to go out and proclaim the gospel, to help those in need, to witness to others, &c.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Winman]

Wow, kinda losing it this morning, aren't we Willis?

And what is the Father's will?

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The Jews directly asked Jesus what works they must do to do the works of God, and Jesus answered them that they simply believe on him. He didn't tell them that they had to pick up their cross and follow him, or give up everything they own. Nope, simply believe.

And what does believe mean? Well, obviously it does not mean to simply recognize a fact, because these persons in Matthew 7 believed that Jesus was the Lord, yet they were lost as a goose.

No, what the word believe means is to cast yourself upon Jesus and rely and depend upon him only to save you. This is clearly shown in the parable of the Pharisee and publican in Luke 18;

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee believed in God just like those lost persons in Matthew 7. And just like those lost persons, this Pharisee boasted of his own works and righteousness. And he was lost.

The publican on the other hand made no boast whatsoever. He confessed he was a sinner and cast himself completely on the mercy of God. This is saving faith, to depend and rely upon God alone to save you. And this man was saved, Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified.

Jesus saved me when I came to him and called upon him to save me as he promised in many scriptures like John 6:37 and Romans 10:13. I am depending on his faithfulness to keep his promises to me, not my faithfulness to him. If I had to depend on my faithfulness to Jesus, I would be utterly lost.

So, you have the choice, depend on Jesus's faithfulness, or your own.

Good luck.

 

[convicted1]

Wow, kinda losing it this morning, aren't we Willis?

This time of the morning, anything's possible. :laugh:

And what is the Father's will?

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

:thumbsup: You're slowly coming around. God does this work. He is the One who causes us to believe...it's His work He performs within us. :thumbsup: Keep coming, you're slowly getting there.....

The Jews directly asked Jesus what works they must do to do the works of God, and Jesus answered them that they simply believe on him. He didn't tell them that they had to pick up their cross and follow him, or give up everything they own. Nope, simply believe.

And what does believe mean? Well, obviously it does not mean to simply recognize a fact, because these persons in Matthew 7 believed that Jesus was the Lord, yet they were lost as a goose.

No, what the word believe means is to cast yourself upon Jesus and rely and depend upon him only to save you. This is clearly shown in the parable of the Pharisee and publican in Luke 18;

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The publican on the other hand made no boast whatsoever. He confessed he was a sinner and cast himself completely on the mercy of God. This is saving faith, to depend and rely upon God alone to save you. And this man was saved, Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified.


The Pharisee believed in God just like those lost persons in Matthew 7. And just like those lost persons, this Pharisee boasted of his own works and righteousness. And he was lost.

He believed in God, yet they didn't believe in Jesus. So, did he truly believe in Elohim, Jehovah, or "god"? How can one truly believe in God and not Jesus?


Again, a repentless salvation is a salvationless salvation. How can you turn to Jesus and not repent? Repentance is a change of course, a change of mind, &c. To turn to Jesus is to turn from yourself, and that is repentance

Jesus saved me when I came to him and called upon him to save me as he promised in many scriptures like John 6:37 and Romans 10;13. I am depending on his faithfulness to keep his promises to me, not my faithfulness to him. If I had to depend on my faithfulness to Jesus, I would be utterly lost.

And your conversion account is repentance in a nutshell. You turned from yourself and turned to Him. You had a change of mind brought on by His doing His work within you.

So, you have the choice, depend on Jesus's faithfulness, or your own.

Good luck.

I have no idea what you mean by this statement.

 

[JonC]

That would be an incorrect understanding of it.

IMHO you are absolutely correct. But that's part of the problem (at least it seems to me to be part of the problem here). It seems that people are working off very different definitions.

 

[Aaron]

Many do not understand LS and are intimidated to studying the matter in depth. Afraid to read a book and look up all the verses. Fear and an unwillingness to read and study may be pride. I told a New Age author whom wrote me and I said I would read her book if she read Invasion of other gods and I did not hear a reply. I have challenged free grace advocates that I would read absolutely Free if they read a good book on LS but I do not usually hear back. I am so saddened by the actions of people.

Yes LS is not easy but to me having an open mind it seems a very clear doctrine.

If Lordship Salvation is merely another name for the Perseverance of the Saints, just call it, Perseverance of the Saints. If LS is what you say it is, then Lordship Salvation is a confusing, poor and misleading moniker.

 

[JonC]

If Lordship Salvation is merely another name for the Perseverance of the Saints, just call it, Perseverance of the Saints. If LS is what you say it is, then Lordship Salvation is a confusing, poor and misleading moniker.

The difference for me is that some view LS as one having to “make” Christ the Lord of their lives or be submissive in every area of their life to be saved while others (including me) view LS as truly believing (as opposed to only a cognitive belief…i.e., “repent and believe”). LS is not, IMHO, “Perseverance of the Saints” but being “in Christ.” For the Christian, Christ is Lord – even through their disobedience and failures. It is not something we “do,” but the relationship of the believer to God. The "fruit" does not produce but is a result of salvation.

 

[evangelist6589]

Wow, kinda losing it this morning, aren't we Willis?

And what is the Father's will?

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The Jews directly asked Jesus what works they must do to do the works of God, and Jesus answered them that they simply believe on him. He didn't tell them that they had to pick up their cross and follow him, or give up everything they own. Nope, simply believe.

And what does believe mean? Well, obviously it does not mean to simply recognize a fact, because these persons in Matthew 7 believed that Jesus was the Lord, yet they were lost as a goose.

No, what the word believe means is to cast yourself upon Jesus and rely and depend upon him only to save you. This is clearly shown in the parable of the Pharisee and publican in Luke 18;

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee believed in God just like those lost persons in Matthew 7. And just like those lost persons, this Pharisee boasted of his own works and righteousness. And he was lost.

The publican on the other hand made no boast whatsoever. He confessed he was a sinner and cast himself completely on the mercy of God. This is saving faith, to depend and rely upon God alone to save you. And this man was saved, Jesus said the publican went down to his house justified.

Jesus saved me when I came to him and called upon him to save me as he promised in many scriptures like John 6:37 and Romans 10:13. I am depending on his faithfulness to keep his promises to me, not my faithfulness to him. If I had to depend on my faithfulness to Jesus, I would be utterly lost.

So, you have the choice, depend on Jesus's faithfulness, or your own.

Good luck.

You are well studied in the scripture that much is clear. I will give the free grace position another look when I get this free grace soteriology book.

 

[webdog]

The arrogance of this post. Have you actually studied and read a book looking up the verses?

Based on the arrogance in the op...you really have no leg to stand on.

Free Grace books touch on the issue. Have you read any...or do you only read books that support your position?

 

[evangelist6589]

Based on the arrogance in the op...you really have no leg to stand on.

Free Grace books touch on the issue. Have you read any...or do you only read books that support your position?

I have read in full cover to cover.

Eternal Security Charles Stanley
Your Eternal Reward and How you can be sure you will spend eternity with God Erwin Lutzer. Both are free grace theology.

A brother said he would mail a book more academic and I will read it when I get it.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

...they just understand the necessity of the progress part of it Dconn....:laugh::laugh:

And when you're on a cross-country trip in your truck, is your progress uniform, or do you stop and start a lot? You don't get it. Sanctification takes a lifetime to complete, and the finishing work isn't done on this side of heaven.

 

[Winman]

You are well studied in the scripture that much is clear. I will give the free grace position another look when I get this free grace soteriology book.

Yes, note that the lost persons in Matthew 7 called Jesus "Lord, Lord". Twice Jesus says this. These persons believed Jesus was Lord, but they were completely lost. Why? Because they depended on their works to save them, they prophesied in Jesus's name, cast out devils in Jesus's name, and did many wonderful works in Jesus's name. This was their confidence.

And this is what assures Lordship Salvationists, their works. They will deny this, but this very thread makes it obvious, if you do not do good works in Lordship Salvation, you are considered lost.

How ironic.

True belief in Jesus is not believing a fact. It is not believing he is the Son of God, or that he is Lord. Those lost persons in Matthew 7 believed he was Lord.

No, true belief is casting yourself upon Jesus and depending upon him and him alone 100% to save you. Jesus doesn't need our works or our help to save us, he can manage quite well by himself. When you try to include your works in salvation, it is a slap in the face to Jesus.

No, do like the publican and depend on Jesus alone to save you, and you will be saved.

Some call this Easy Believism, and it is easy for us, but it was very difficult for Jesus. He had to live a perfect life as a man in a very sinful world, and die for us.

 

[evangelist6589]

Yes, note that the lost persons in Matthew 7 called Jesus "Lord, Lord". Twice Jesus says this. These persons believed Jesus was Lord, but they were completely lost. Why? Because they depended on their works to save them, they prophesied in Jesus's name, cast out devils in Jesus's name, and did many wonderful works in Jesus's name. This was their confidence.

And this is what assures Lordship Salvationists, their works. They will deny this, but this very thread makes it obvious, if you do not do good works in Lordship Salvation, you are considered lost.

How ironic.

True belief in Jesus is not believing a fact. It is not believing he is the Son of God, or that he is Lord. Those lost persons in Matthew 7 believed he was Lord.

No, true belief is casting yourself upon Jesus and depending upon him and him alone 100% to save you. Jesus doesn't need our works or our help to save us, he can manage quite well by himself. When you try to include your works in salvation, it is a slap in the face to Jesus.

No, do like the publican and depend on Jesus alone to save you, and you will be saved.

Some call this Easy Believism, and it is easy for us, but it was very difficult for Jesus. He had to live a perfect life as a man in a very sinful world, and die for us.

Actually the crowd in the passage of which you speak are charismatics since they are the ones that think casting out devils, and doing miracles is a good thing and they are the false converts Jesus explicitly spells out here. Unless you know of a Calvinist that believes in doing miracles and casting out devils. Do you?

 

[evangelist6589]

Calm down man, calm down...

Emphasis mine...


God saved us to do what? Good works. Not that we do them to be saved, stay saved, keep saved, &c. Our works make manifest who we are working for. God didn't save us just so that we could go to church on sunday morning, evening and wednesday evening. We are to go out and proclaim the gospel, to help those in need, to witness to others, &c.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Winman]

Actually the crowd in the passage of which you speak are charismatics since they are the ones that think casting out devils, and doing miracles is a good thing and they are the false converts Jesus explicitly spells out here. Unless you know of a Calvinist that believes in doing miracles and casting out devils. Do you?

Oh, I agree, but those folks who say "Lord, Lord" are Lordship Salvation folks all the way.

What is important is that this passage shows you can believe in Jesus as Lord and not be saved. Why? Because these persons "trusted in themselves" as is also shown in Luke 18.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Was the Pharisee an atheist? NO, he believed in God. Was God "Lord" to the Pharisee? Yes, Pharisees were very obedient, Paul said of the law that he was "blameless".

Phi 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Were Pharisees obedient? YES, remarkably so. We often criticize the Pharisees, but in reality they were very devout and obedient to the law. The problem is they trusted in themselves that they were righteous, just as those false converts in Matthew 7 did.

Note how this Pharisee boasted of all his good works just like the lost persons in Matthew 7.

But the publican was very different. He made no boast whatsoever of being obedient or righteous. He confessed he was nothing but a sinner and cast himself completely on God's mercy. And he was saved.

This is saving faith, to place your complete dependence and trust upon Jesus Christ alone and his mercy to save you.

And folks can get all mad if they want to, but all this man did was pray a simple prayer and ask God to forgive him.

And God did forgive him.

Jesus did not tell us these parables without reason. Learn from them what is true doctrine and what is not.

 

[evangelist6589]

Oh, I agree, but those folks who say "Lord, Lord" are Lordship Salvation folks all the way.

What is important is that this passage shows you can believe in Jesus as Lord and not be saved. Why? Because these persons "trusted in themselves" as is also shown in Luke 18.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Was the Pharisee an atheist? NO, he believed in God. Was God "Lord" to the Pharisee? Yes, Pharisees were very obedient, Paul said of the law that he was "blameless".

Phi 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Were Pharisees obedient? YES, remarkably so. We often criticize the Pharisees, but in reality they were very devout and obedient to the law. The problem is they trusted in themselves that they were righteous, just as those false converts in Matthew 7 did.

Note how this Pharisee boasted of all his good works just like the lost persons in Matthew 7.

But the publican was very different. He made no boast whatsoever of being obedient or righteous. He confessed he was nothing but a sinner and cast himself completely on God's mercy. And he was saved.

This is saving faith, to place your complete dependence and trust upon Jesus Christ alone and his mercy to save you.

And folks can get all mad if they want to, but all this man did was pray a simple prayer and ask God to forgive him.

And God did forgive him.

Jesus did not tell us these parables without reason. Learn from them what is true doctrine and what is not.

So charismatics believe in Lordship????? And also a Pharisee is very proud and would not admit sins. True LS believers admit and confess sin (1 John 1:9) on a daily basis. No WinMan don't say we pray to God we are not like Arminian because we don't.

 

[Winman]

So charismatics believe in Lordship????? And also a Pharisee is very proud and would not admit sins. True LS believers admit and confess sin (1 John 1:9) on a daily basis. No WinMan don't say we pray to God we are not like Arminian because we don't.

No, Lordship Salvationists say "Lord, Lord". Note the great emphasis placed on this in the passage, Jesus says it twice.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It's right before your eyes, but you don't want to see it. What group puts great emphasis on the Lordship of Christ?

What group tells you that you must show works as evidence you are saved?

And yes, the Charismatics and Arminians also say you have to maintain works to be saved. They believe you can lose your salvation.

Calvinists put it differently, but the result is the same, they say if you do not work, then you were never saved. The result is the same, you are lost.

What works did the publican do to get saved?

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Another post...another chance for you to get it completely wrong....let's see how you do it this time:laugh:

No, Lordship Salvationists say "Lord, Lord". Note the great emphasis placed on this in the passage, Jesus says it twice.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

.

Calvinists put it differently, but the result is the same, they say if you do not work, then you were never saved. The result is the same, you are lost.

They rightly say if you have no works...you are not saved because that is what Jesus said to those he casts into hell.....observe- Jesus says its not the ones who call him Lord but those who do good works

but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
again here...

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

in mt 25 the goats are sent to hell for a lack of works


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So you have it backwards and wrong once again.

 

[Winman]

They rightly say if you have no works...you are not saved because that is what Jesus said to those he casts into hell.....observe- Jesus says its not the ones who call him Lord but those who do good works

but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
again here...

Wrong. These folks were doing works, they prophesied in Jesus's name, they cast out devils in his name, and did many wonderful works in his name.

But you are correct, they did not do the will of his Father in heaven. And what was his Father's will? That they believe on Jesus.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The Jews asked Jesus directly what they should do to do the works of God. Did Jesus tell them to take up their cross and follow him? NOPE. Did he tell them to do many good works? NOPE.

No, Jesus simply told them his Father's will was that they believe on him, Jesus Christ.

To believe on Jesus means to completely rely on him alone to save you. Jesus does not need your help, he does not need your good works to help him, he can save you all by himself. You insult Christ when you try to assist him.

Those false converts boasted of their many good works and they were as lost as a goose. The Pharisee in Luke 18 also boasted of his many good works and he was also lost.

The publican did not boast of any works, but completely cast himself on the mercy of God and he was saved.

But you just keep on workin'. Good luck to you.

 

[Iconoclast]

And when you're on a cross-country trip in your truck, is your progress uniform, or do you stop and start a lot? You don't get it. Sanctification takes a lifetime to complete, and the finishing work isn't done on this side of heaven.

Even with stops and starts progress happens.If I told the boss I was going to pause for 15-20 years before I deliver the load...I would be fired for not doing the job. They would not ask me to rededicate myself to the job...they would reject me.