Why is lordship Salvation so hard for many to understand?

[RLBosley]

It is called "presuppositions".

That's definitely part of it. Also I think the majority of the anti-LS people are getting bad information form bad secondary sources. They'd rather hear someone they already know and like tear down mean and teaching they don't understand, than try to understand it themselves from primary sources. Like an atheist going to Bill Maher to understand Christianity...

Does anyone know what this guy is talking about?

I think he misunderstood what you said.

 

[evangelist6589]

Thanks brother Rob. However I am on a book buying limit at this time as I have too many books and I won't buy anymore until I finish books. I did fish 2 books in the last 2 weeks but still have about 15 more to read which I may not get around too. I can however accept gifts of books but thats all. Other than that this book will need to wait as my wife is holding my accountable on this one. Cant buy books nor donate to a ministry to get books until I get caught up, or I get a gift of a book.

Lordship Salvation is a nuanced doctrinal position that flows from a Calvinistic theology (I can't believe I said the "C" word in this thread before you! :tongue3: )

I'd challenge you to read a better explanation of the free grace position, "Free Grace Soteriology" by David R. Anderson [LINK].

I wouldn't bother reading Hodge's book. His works aren't as clear as they could be and he is rather extreme in his views, the very reason why McArthur refers to his works so much.


As quoted by David R. Anderson, (2012). Free Grace Soteriology. (Revised Edition., p. 250). Grace Theology Press.

Rob

 

[RLBosley]

[G]reat essential agreement exists between proponents and opponents of lordship salvation. Both sides agree that regeneration, or the impartation of eternal life by the Holy Spirit to a sinner, is required for salvation. Both sides agree that regeneration produces a positional change: a Father-child relationship is established between God and the believing sinner. Both sides also agree that regeneration produces a constitutional change: a person receives the Holy Spirit and eternal life, which is God’s quality of life placed within his soul. This constitutional change provides the possibility and the power for a superb transformation of character and conduct. Both sides agree that such transformation is expected, desired, demanded, and possible for the believer. Both sides also agree that Christians can sin, and sin severely.
Both sides agree that sin in a believer is serious and brings on him or her the convicting work of the Holy Spirit and should result in confrontation and discipline by the church. And both sides agree that such disobedience can last for some period of time in a believer.… The truth is, lordship salvation does not teach that every professing Christian who sins is not a true believer. Likewise, free grace teachers do not affirm the salvation of everyone who claims to be a Christian.
Undoubtedly, much of Christian history has taught that regeneration will produce some outward and visible change and that no change whatsoever may be evidence of a lack of true regeneration. But free grace teachers teach the same thing. The points of disagreement go back to the nature of faith and assurance. What the free grace position simply will not allow is that the change produced by regeneration is the grounds of or the evidence for assurance of genuine salvation. (Thomas G. Lewellen, “Has Lordship Salvation Been Taught Throughout Church History?” 65.)

As quoted by David R. Anderson, (2012). Free Grace Soteriology. (Revised Edition., p. 250). Grace Theology Press.

Rob

That is a great quote. I think half the people here ought to read that book just to actually learn what LS teaches! The bolded above is something the anti-LS people REALLY need to understand.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

... "Both sides also agree that Christians can sin, and sin severely" ...

There are people on this board -- on this thread! -- that deny progressive sanctification. Their view is, severe sin is indicative of "failed conversion." :BangHead:

 

[Deacon]

Thanks brother Rob. However I am on a book buying limit at this time as I have too many books and I won't buy anymore until I finish books.

Been there! PM me with your address when you're ready to read it and I'll send you a copy, if you desire.

Rob

 

[evangelist6589]

That is a great quote. I think half the people here ought to read that book just to actually learn what LS teaches! The bolded above is something the anti-LS people REALLY need to understand.

So many on this board are against books so don't hold your breath.

 

[evangelist6589]

There are people on this board -- on this thread! -- that deny progressive sanctification. Their view is, severe sin is indicative of "failed conversion." :BangHead:

That's not what I believe. Christians can fall into sin as I have many times. But they always repent when God brings conviction, sometimes that takes time.

 

[evangelist6589]

Been there! PM me with your address when you're ready to read it and I'll send you a copy, if you desire.



Rob

Thank you brother Rob will do so when I get to my Mac. Also I have a extra copy of Faith Works by Mac if you want it. I am looking for someone that will read it but doubt will find anyone in my church so the book may collect dust.

I am reading the Gospel according to the apostles and I miss the topical index and footnotes that the previous version Faith Works has. However the size of the latest book is much smaller.

 

[Winman]

What the free grace position simply will not allow is that the change produced by regeneration is the grounds of or the evidence for assurance of genuine salvation. (Thomas G. Lewellen, “Has Lordship Salvation Been Taught Throughout Church History?” 65.)

This is the most important sentence in that statement, and what it is all about.

Free Grace believers depend on scripture and God's promises for assurance. I came to Jesus in my heart and called upon him to save me, therefore I can claim many direct promises made in scriptures such as John 6:37 and Romans 10:13;

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Free Grace persons like me will claim these and other verses as scriptural proof we are saved. I know that in my heart I came to Jesus and sincerely called upon him to save me, and so I can claim the direct promises of God in scripture as my assurance of salvation.

As Curtis Hutson used to say, "If I am not saved, God will lose more than me. I will simply lose my soul, but God will lose his integrity".

I am not depending on my performance or faithfulness to Jesus as my security and assurance of salvation, I am completely depending on Jesus's perfect faithfulness to me to keep his promise to save me if I came to him.

Lordship Salvation is the exact opposite, it expects faithfulness from the believer as his security and assurance of salvation. Unless he is doing a reasonable job of obeying Jesus, he can have no assurance or guarantee of salvation. The problem is, no Lordship Salvation person can tell you how obedient you must be to prove you are saved.

But they are not the same as that author seemed to argue. Free Grace and Lordship Salvation are direct opposites.

Free Grace- depends on Jesus's faithfulness

Lordship Salvation - depends on the believer's faithfulness.

One is scriptural, one is not.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Free Grace persons like me will claim these and other verses as scriptural proof we are saved. I know that in my heart I came to Jesus and sincerely called upon him to save me, and so I can claim the direct promises of God in scripture as my assurance of salvation

.

This is a false carnal security-
and you are in direct opposition to scripture;

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

As Curtis Hutson used to say, "If I am not saved, God will lose more than me. I will simply lose my soul, but God will lose his integrity".

a horrible statement, vain boasting...

I am not depending on my performance or faithfulness to Jesus as my security and assurance of salvation, I am completely depending on Jesus's perfect faithfulness to me to keep his promise to save me if I came to him.

he can have no assurance , unless these fruits are in evidence...Peter warns in the highlighted portions that these were necessary for assurance.

Lordship Salvation is the exact opposite, it expects faithfulness from the believer as his security and assurance of salvation.

no...not as his security...nope

Unless he is doing a reasonable job of obeying Jesus, he can have no assurance or guarantee of salvation. The problem is, no Lordship Salvation person can tell you how obedient you must be to prove you are saved

.

Peter does in 2 pet 1

But they are not the same as that author seemed to argue. Free Grace and Lordship Salvation are direct opposites.

Free Grace- depends on Jesus's faithfulness

Lordship Salvation - depends on the believer's faithfulness.

One is scriptural, one is not.

wrong again:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Well, let's hope you are faithful enough Iconoclast. :wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, let's hope you are faithful enough Iconoclast. :wavey::wavey:

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

There are people on this board -- on this thread! -- that deny progressive sanctification. Their view is, severe sin is indicative of "failed conversion."

You do not understand the topic biblically. No one denies progressive sanctification at all......they just understand the necessity of the progress part of it Dconn....:laugh::laugh:

 

[Winman]

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:thumbsup:

That's Free Grace, that's saying the Lord is faithful. Lordship Salvation demands that you be faithful. Good luck.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's Free Grace, that's saying the Lord is faithful. Lordship Salvation demands that you be faithful. Good luck.

That is what you cannot grasp...both are true for a biblical Christian, and unless both are true...the person is only a carnal professor....:wavey:

 

[Winman]

That is what you cannot grasp...both are true for a biblical Christian, and unless both are true...the person is only a carnal professor....:wavey:

Wow, Iconoclast has suddenly become a synergist. :laugh:

Well, let's hope you can endure.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wow, Iconoclast has suddenly become a synergist. :laugh:

Well, let's hope you can endure.

No...just believe what the bible says on it;

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We work out, what God has worked in us.....we are law keepers:thumbs::wavey: let me know if you see this..:laugh:

or do you need larger print...lol

 

[Winman]

No...just believe what the bible says on it;

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We work out, what God has worked in us.....we are law keepers:thumbs::wavey: let me know if you see this..:laugh:

or do you need larger print...lol

At least you are honest enough to admit you are WORKING for your salvation.

Good luck, hope you make it.

 

[JamesL]

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:thumbsup:

You've taken Philippians 1:6 so far out of context that it's not even funny.

Would you believe Paul was talking about money there?

 

[Iconoclast]

At least you are honest enough to admit you are WORKING for your salvation.

Winman once again you get the verse wrong...it says work OUT your salvation...it does not say....work FOR it.....how you miss this is a wonder:laugh:

Good luck, hope you make it

.

there is no luck....just providence