Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

[JonC]

Jesus was as Adam at His creation, as Jesus had no sin nature, as he had sinless perfect Humanity... NONE of us can claim that, as He was made in our likeness, but not our sameness...

If this is true, you have to remember that Adam, in his sinless and perfect humanity, sinned.

 

[delizzle]

God gave to Adam the potential to freely sin, and after the fall, ALL save Jesus now in bondage to that sin nature!

Just to clarify, Adam initially was not in such bondage. So free will may have been an option for him prior to the fall. Is that a correct statement?

 

[Yeshua1]

So you do believe God authors sin? I think you may change your mind if you consider the words of James.

We are tempted by things we desire. When we are carried away in our lusts sin is birthed. It is acting on our desires (on the desires of the flesh) rather than submitting to the will of God. Jesus was tempted to eat during a fast. This would have been a sin as it would have been giving in to temptation over the will of God. But Jesus did not act on this desire.

I do NOT think God authors sin, but that after the fall, God is allowing all humans to receive the sin nature that Adam found to now be in Him!

 

[delizzle]

Adam's rebellion isn't a result of the fall, it is the fall.

The Archangel

What was the result of Adam's Rebellion?

 

[Yeshua1]

If this is true, you have to remember that Adam, in his sinless and perfect humanity, sinned.

He had the potential to sin being human, Jesus could not , as being very God also!

 

[Yeshua1]

Just to clarify, Adam initially was not in such bondage. So free will may have been an option for him prior to the fall. Is that a correct statement?

Adam freely chose to rebel against God, yes....

 

[delizzle]

We all were judged in Adam as now being found guilty, and all received a sin nature when conceived....

Do you practice infant baptism?

 

[JonC]

He had the potential to sin being human, Jesus could not , as being very God also!

So Jesus was less than human...less than Adam in terms of His humanity?

 

[JonC]

I do NOT think God authors sin, but that after the fall, God is allowing all humans to receive the sin nature that Adam found to now be in Him!

So God allowed or permitted man to receive the "sin nature" that Adam discovered in himself? Where did it come from? Did Adam have it before he sinned?

 

[Reynolds]

What would be outside of His control then?

Again, word games. Think of God as an earthly king for a moment. He tells his servants, plant anything you like in your fields. A servant then freely chooses to plant corn. Another freely chooses to plant beans. God remained in control, yet gave His servants a free choice.

 

[The Archangel]

Absolutely. I've made the same point on other threads. Technically there were no transgressors like Adam and Israel (from Moses forward). Yet we are all slaves to sin and death. This is not a "sin nature" but a human nature under the headship of Adam. Christ was made flesh, in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was tempted, yet without sin. We are tempted by what is in our nature. Jesus was tempted by what was in His nature (as a man). This is not sin. Sin is a matter of the will, not the nature.

There is no passage of Scripture that states Adam's nature changed before, after, or during the Fall. Rather, James tells us we are tempted by things of the flesh and when we give in to this temptation sin is birthed. As you so aptly put it, when we put our desires...ourselves....in the place of God or God's will this is rebellion and sin.

You’re looking at James anachronistically. He’s writing to a post-fall people and your applying it to the pre-fall world.

That James says this, along with boatloads of biblical evidence shows you to be incorrect.

Would you argue that the mankind God created on the garden desired “only evil continually?” For your idea to be correct you would have to do so.

It is clear in nearly every page of scripture that something has happened to man between Genesis 3 and 4.

The Archangel.


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[JonC]

You’re looking at James anachronistically. He’s writing to a post-fall people and your applying it to the pre-fall world.

That James says this, along with boatloads of biblical evidence shows you to be incorrect.

Would you argue that the mankind God created on the garden desired “only evil continually?” For your idea to be correct you would have to do so.

It is clear in nearly every page of scripture that something has happened to man between Genesis 3 and 4.

The Archangel.


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I would argue that Adam, being made in God's image, sought a type of equality with God as something to grasp. I would argue that Adam was tempted by his desires and transgressed God's command. Sin and death entered the world and men were enslaved, condemned and corrupt. And I would argue that as men sought their will God gave them over to unnatural desires.

Jesus has a human nature to include natural desires of the flesh, yet He did not sin. No passage presents Jesus as being less than man in His humanity. No passage describes Adam as having anything but a human nature.

 

[thatbrian]

Can you explain this further? I agree that the Fall was somewhere between "allow" and "cause," but I would have to argue that God does indeed know that Man will sin.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Sorry. I must have done edits to that post and didn't realize my error. I meant to say that God certainly knew what would happen.

 

[thatbrian]

Did God create everything that was created?

Of course He did.

Can created Lucifer have the ability to do evil without God creating that ability in him?

No.

Can created man have the ability to do evil without Sovereign God creating that ability in him?

No.

God gave Adam a free choice as to whether or not He would sin?

Limited "freedom".

God will not give man a free choice as to whether or not he will be saved?

Given the choice, no sinful man would take it because no man is free in the way in which you believe he is.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have NEVER read anyone who claimed that God was the cause/author of sin, have you?

On this board quite a bit

 

[The Archangel]

I would argue that Adam, being made in God's image, sought a type of equality with God as something to grasp. I would argue that Adam was tempted by his desires and transgressed God's command. Sin and death entered the world and men were enslaved, condemned and corrupt. And I would argue that as men sought their will God gave them over to unnatural desires.

Jesus has a human nature to include natural desires of the flesh, yet He did not sin. No passage presents Jesus as being less than man in His humanity. No passage describes Adam as having anything but a human nature.

The problem is that Eve is tempted, and it’s not by something within herself. Adam, on the other hand, eats the fruit Eve gives him, and in that is some type of rebellious sin. So you’d have to argue Adam is created in some type of imperfection where he desires equality with God, which the text clearly does not support.

The Archangel


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[JonC]

The problem is that Eve is tempted, and it’s not by something within herself. Adam, on the other hand, eats the fruit Eve gives him, and in that is some type of rebellious sin. So you’d have to argue Adam is created in some type of imperfection where he desires equality with God, which the text clearly does not support.

The Archangel


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Scripture states that Eve saw that the fruit was "good for food", a "delight to the eyes", and desirable to make one wise. This certainly appeals to something within. Scripture does not present Adam or Eve as getting a new "sinful nature".

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you practice infant baptism?

Nope, am a Baptist, so practice believers!

 

[Yeshua1]

So Jesus was less than human...less than Adam in terms of His humanity?

No. exactly the same in his humanity as Adam was before the fall!

 

[The Archangel]

Scripture states that Eve saw that the fruit was "good for food", a "delight to the eyes", and desirable to make one wise. This certainly appeals to something within. Scripture does not present Adam or Eve as getting a new "sinful nature".

Again, you’re ignoring the text. What you’ve quoted here is after the temptation. She sins after an external temptation. She uses her intellect to adjudicate the fruit, ignoring the law God had given.

The Archangel


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