Will People Be Condemned for Not Believing in Jesus though They’ve Never Heard His Name?

[Silverhair]

It's all that's needed to correctly answer you poor obsessed souls that constantly rail against God's Sovereign Grace.

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

KY Ever and anon you keep saying the same thing but do not deal with the actual post. You seem to think your out of context verses deal with the logical problems of your calvinist view, they do not. Deal with what was posted. If you do not see the problem in what @Alan Gross posted then you have a logic problem.

FWIW it is not God's Sovereign Grace that I rail against. Are you suggesting the my disagreeing with what @Alan Gross posted is me railing against God? How foolish of you.

 

[kyredneck]

the problem in what @Alan Gross posted

This?

 

[taisto]

KY Ever and anon you keep saying the same thing but do not deal with the actual post. You seem to think your out of context verses deal with the logical problems of your calvinist view, they do not. Deal with what was posted. If you do not see the problem in what @Alan Gross posted then you have a logic problem.

Silverhair, KY shared the same verse I shared. Your complaint was answered by the Apostle Paul and now you are attempting to squirm out of it by making a baseless claim and ignoring the verse that directly answers your complaint.

You have lost the debate.

 

[Silverhair]

This?

Yes.

 

[kyredneck]

You have lost the debate.

Lol, he's not here to debate, he's here to get his 'fix', to tease and taunt and troll to see who he can draw into his rabbit holes and how long he can keep them there.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, KY shared the same verse I shared. Your complaint was answered by the Apostle Paul and now you are attempting to squirm out of it by making a baseless claim and ignoring the verse that directly answers your complaint.

You have lost the debate.

@taisto I dealt with your lack of response in post # 49 but you did not care to deal with the actual problem with @Alan Gross post. So I can not loose a debate when the other person does not want to debate.

As I told KY so I will say to you. Out of context verses do not deal with the logic problem found in Allan's post.

 

[kyredneck]

Yes.

....and this is a new thing to you? That happens consistently throughout the Bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Lol, he's not here to debate, he's here to get his 'fix', to tease and taunt and troll to see who he can draw into his rabbit holes and how long he can keep them there.

KY funny you should say that as @DaveXR650 and I have been having a reasonable adult debate while you and @taisto continue to make your unfounded comments. When will you and @taisto actually deal with the logic problem of @Alan Gross post? To us Taisto words when will you guys stop squirming.

 

[Silverhair]

....and this is a new thing to you? That happens consistently throughout the Bible.

Only in your calvinist version.

 

[kyredneck]

KY funny you should say that as @DaveXR650 and I have been having a reasonable adult debate while you and @taisto continue to make your unfounded comments. When will you and @taisto actually deal with the logic problem of @Alan Gross post? To us Taisto words when will you guys stop squirming.

Dave loves to talk and you love to keep him engaged. I suppose you’re both getting your ‘fix’. Resolved anything yet? Lol…

 

[Alan Gross]

They hear through the Holy Spirit what is Devine truth.

What did you hear? You heard what Divine Truth is? What is it? Can you share with us what you heard?

Then they look for further clarity from the temporal world…

I hope you don't have scripture for this Earth, Wind, and Fire. I really do.
Do you know what you mean by it?

that they can and must do if they are stimulated by the Holy Spirit.

They can and do look for clarity from the temporal world about what?
Someone to tell them that they behaved acceptably enough for a long enough period of time that they must be The Elect?

. A preacher, no matter how sincere and even in your face proselytizing, can not convince a non believer to regenerate

Nope. They sure can't.

the element of God thru the HS is the salvation mechanism.

Then, that could be stated over as, "the element of God through God"?

And that element, whatever you're saying, is the salvation mechanism?

So, the salvation mechanism is what? I'm missing something.

That’s how your born again.

O.K.

. Thus it is Regeneration first followed by conversion. Not the reverse.

Of course. Perfectly right you are.

Not trying to tussle. Just looking for clarity
and any support that I hope you don't have!

Oh, and you don't have to answer any of my stupid questions or say anything besides, "shut up, Alan", if you like. Do you.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave loves to talk and you love to keep him engaged. I suppose you’re both getting your ‘fix’. Resolved anything yet? Lol…

@Silverhair gets frustrated with me and I get frustrated with him. But whether you are aware of it or not, he is bringing in another level of the debate on the extent of determinism which is in Calvinism that is a valid concern. There are answers to it and I clumsily try to debate that and learn as I go while actually reading some of the better free will rebuttals. I also read the actual sermons of Calvinists, which you apparently don't.

If you read the later books on Arminian theology you will find that quoting Romans 9 is not sufficient to end the debate. This is not 2004 when the Young, Restless and Reformed took over the internet as the representatives of true Christianity and quoting Romans 9 won't make your free will pastor start crying any more. He will hit you with some of the same paradoxes Silverhair is using. If you have a meaningful rebuttal then chime in. We probably won't resolve anything. The only thing I know for sure is that when you chime in it will be a simplistic response with no explanation followed by an insult.

 

[tyndale1946]

@Silverhair gets frustrated with me and I get frustrated with him. But whether you are aware of it or not, he is bringing in another level of the debate on the extent of determinism which is in Calvinism that is a valid concern. There are answers to it and I clumsily try to debate that and learn as I go while actually reading some of the better free will rebuttals. I also read the actual sermons of Calvinists, which you apparently don't.

If you read the later books on Arminian theology you will find that quoting Romans 9 is not sufficient to end the debate. This is not 2004 when the Young, Restless and Reformed took over the internet as the representatives of true Christianity and quoting Romans 9 won't make your free will pastor start crying any more. He will hit you with some of the same paradoxes Silverhair is using. If you have a meaningful rebuttal then chime in. We probably won't resolve anything. The only thing I know for sure is that when you chime in it will be a simplistic response with no explanation followed by an insult.

Then let me end this debate by scripture, it doesn't say belief, nor does it say preacher, and church isn't there, only God... Brother Glen

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

Dave loves to talk and you love to keep him engaged. I suppose you’re both getting your ‘fix’. Resolved anything yet? Lol…

Your lack of engaging just shows that you have no scriptural support for your view. So it's all hat and no cattle with you.

 

[percho]

Then let me end this debate by scripture, it doesn't say belief, nor does it say preacher, and church isn't there, only God... Brother Glen

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I love this post and it appears to me that if God doesn't do it, it, ain't going to get done. Birth one that is.

 

[Silverhair]

Then let me end this debate by scripture, it doesn't say belief, nor does it say preacher, and church isn't there, only God... Brother Glen

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

@tyndale1946 I agree, only those that are born again will enter the kingdom. But what you, as the rest, seem to have missed is the logical problem that comes from @Alan Gross comment.
"and spiritual inability
does not destroy responsibility."

For Calvinists to just ignore the problem does not make it go away. As we see here this is not a new problem with the calvinist view.
Paragraph 3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation, LBCF 9

Remember Calvinists are the ones that say God has to determine everything. Man can not have a free will so as to trust in God for his salvation or God is not sovereign. So if He has to determine everything then how can man be responsible for what God has determined for him to do? How can you logically say "and spiritual inability does not destroy responsibility."

 

[tyndale1946]

I love this post and it appears to me that if God doesn't do it, it, ain't going to get done. Birth one that is.

I hear some say well its the preacher... Well I heard a lot of long winded preachers and some one can refer to as wind bags but they don't possess Divine Wind, some just hot air... If you had no say so in your natural birth, how can you say you have any say so in your spiritual birth either?... The God that I worship is the only one in the business of Eternal Salvation!... We don't get to Heaven singing... "I Did It My Way"... Brother Glen

 

[Silverhair]

I love this post and it appears to me that if God doesn't do it, it, ain't going to get done. Birth one that is.

What these verses show is that God is the one that saves, what it does not show is why. For that we have to look to other scripture.

The message
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

The result
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The promise
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

The means
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

 

[DaveXR650]

Then let me end this debate by scripture, it doesn't say belief, nor does it say preacher, and church isn't there, only God... Brother Glen

If you keep reading a couple of more verses is does.
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of Man be lifted up - so that whoever believes will have eternal life. You are not in control of being born again. It's not wrong for a Calvinist to say that it is a born again person who believes. It is also proper for a person to say that if you have believed then you are born again. And when you believe if you describe that as you decided to believe because it became apparent to you that all this was true and you chose to respond you have not misspoke.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We've been over this all before and don't let anyone kid you. The fact is Owen, and all the Puritans, and Calvin have sermons and papers on record where they call for you to make a "decision" as to whether you are going to repent and have Christ as Lord or whether you are going to continue in sin and thus damn yourself. They all preach like that. And I have heard plenty of non-Calvinist preachers insist that this "call" of the Holy Spirit better be heeded now, because it may never come again and if it doesn't you won't be able to come and be lost forever. So make of it what you will.

So is it truly the Holy Spirit calling? Even the devil knows scripture.