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Will People Be Condemned for Not Believing in Jesus though They’ve Never Heard His Name?
- Thread starter Piper
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you are being called to come to Christ and repent of your sins I would guess it's not the devil. Could the devil tell you that you are OK because you are "elect" therefore don't be concerned about how you live?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I hear some say well its the preacher... Well I heard a lot of long winded preachers and some one can refer to as wind bags but they don't possess Divine Wind, some just hot air... If you had no say so in your natural birth, how can you say you have any say so in your spiritual birth either?... The God that I worship is the only one in the business of Eternal Salvation!... We don't get to Heaven singing... "I Did It My Way"... Brother Glen
Desire of God
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God’s provision
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
God’s reason
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
The promise
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
So @tyndale1946 I agree with you God is the only one in the business of Eternal Salvation. The only way we get to heaven is if we do it His way.
God’s way
Act 16:30 ...."Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 .... "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,....
In my opinion there would be few if any today who hasn't heard of Jesus. If those who haven't heard were saved with out hearing about the Christ. Then the whole message of Christ was for nothing, it no longer has meaning.. Read Romans 1:16-20. Everyman knows there is a God it's just some of them will never come to Him
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MB
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MB
Why does one believe? Is his belief, of himself or is his belief, of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that ye may believe [should be, believing] in him whom He did send.'
Another of verse, someone's favorite, says the same.
2 Thes 2:13 And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in [to] sanctification of the Spirit, and [to] belief of the truth,
Saul approached Damascus, in unbelief. Saul departed Damascus, in belief?
How?
Acts 9:17,18 And Ananias went away, and did enter into the house, and having put upon him his hands, said, 'Saul, brother, the Lord hath sent me -- Jesus who did appear to thee in the way in which thou wast coming -- that thou mayest see again, and mayest be filled with the Holy Spirit.' And immediately there fell from his eyes as it were scales, he saw again also presently, and having risen, was baptized, [With the Spirit of Truth John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13 1 John 4:6]
So tell me Silverhair how do you give a dead man responsibility?... Brother Glen
Ephesians 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So are you asking if the person believes or if God believes for them. The verses that I posted show clearly that the person has to believe.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
God has set the condition of salvation, faith in His son. Why do you doubt clear scripture?
Also why do you add words to the text of scripture?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. KJV
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." NASB
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." NKJV
Joh 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” BSB
Believe is in the ACTIVE voice. The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.
I am curious as to why you would go to the unclear passages rather than the clear ones?
I mean it does not get much clearer than this:
Act 16:30 ...."Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 .... "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,....
or here
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
or here
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Are you looking for verses that you think support your calvinist view or do you want to see what the bible actually says?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So tell me Silverhair how do you give a dead man responsibility?... Brother Glen
Ephesians 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
I don't, God gives them a free will so they can be responsible for the choices they make. Calvinist seem to think that man can only sin but that is not what the bible says is it.
Notice that Paul says Eph 2:1 ...you were dead in your trespasses and sins, but why would he say "you were" perhaps because they are not longer. But how did that happen
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
So it seems those "dead" men could actually respond to the gospel message so they were not so dead after all. Paul is not saying they are unable to respond but that prior to their accepting the gospel message they were spiritually dead.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Have you ever read any in John?
John 1:6b; "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 "He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light."
John was sent from God to "bear witness" of what? Why?
If that is the Holy Spirit's job.
John 1:29; The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The Gospel. Why bother?
John 2:19b; "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 "But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 "When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."
The Gospel. Jesus preached the Gospel, Himself.
How about the rest of the discussion Jesus was having with Nicodemus in John 3?
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Jesus preached that the Son of Man must be lifted up, as included in the process by which Nicodemus must be born again.
What about that? That's just from the first three chapters.
God has Ordained to methodology and procedure by which a lost soul must be born again and hiding your talents in the earth, to not even putting your pound into the bank, or telling the dry bones nothing God said to, because you know, "the Lord is an Austere Man, He takes up that which He didn't lay down and reaps that which He does not sow", AIN'T IT.
God is in the Business of Eternal Salvation and God Commands How His Business of Eternal Salvation is to be conducted, in the Old and New Testament.
Yes, and the Holy Spirit only calls who God Predestinated when He witnesses to the Old, old story of Jesus and His blood, to Glory Jesus the Savior, in what He Accomplished to fulfill The Triune Godhead's Eternal PLAN of Salvation, by His death because of sin, sin being buried away, and the Assurance of God forgiving the sinner's sin. SIN MUST BE ADDRESSED and be made aware of, for the sinner to be convicted of a need for a Savior.
And how do we know God forgives the sinner's sin, to give them Assurance of their salvation in Jesus?
Jesus rose from the dead, with the Omnipotent Power of Life over death.
That is the Gospel.
That is what the Gospel church state is Commanded and Commissioned to preach, by God called Gospel preachers.
It's what Christianity and the Bible is all about.
"Lo, I come, (in the volume of The Book, it is written of Me), to do thy will, oh God."
Hebrews 10:7.
New thread: Preach the Gospel.
"Why call ye Me, Lord, Lord and do not the things I Say?"
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
As you said all men can know there is a God and when we look at the OT we see that many did trust in Him for salvation. Just as we see today in closed countries. We are spoiled here in the west but even here I have come across people that knew nothing of Christ except that it was a swear word.
I bolded the inaccurate statement you made.
The correct statement is "it's just that all of them will never come to Him (Jesus).
Why do I say this? Because Paul tells us this in Romans 1:19-32.
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
If God did not choose sinners to redeem, no sinner would come to God on his own. Every sinner would do exactly what Paul tells us they will do. Nature alone will never bring a person to salvation.
Every moment of our lives, we should be shocked and in awe of God's grace extended to us in saving us without our consent.
Sure.. why not? He even tried that with Christ (the extreme hight of arrogance, wouldn’t you agree?)
I know how to read… and with the help of the Holy Spirit and with some effort and His blessing I am good. Now I don’t say a preacher isn’t convenient, they are when I need to ask questions I’m not sure about but then I’ve been given mis information and often led astray by many of them… so I personally believe they are superfluous.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@taisto so which group do you fit into? You have such a low opinion of mankind how can you live with yourself knowing that you are part of the dregs of humanity?
But it is a good thing that God does not look at mankind as you do. But you are right God does choose to redeem sinners, those that freely trust in His son.
I posted this before but you must have missed it. Study these as they will help you understand God's plan for our salvation.
God is the only one in the business of Eternal Salvation. The only way we get to heaven is if we do it His way.
Desire of God
1Ti_2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti_2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God’s provision
Joh_3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh_3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
The message
Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
The means
Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,...
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God’s reason
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh_3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
The promise
Rom_10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
The condition
Eph_1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
God’s way
Act_16:30 ...."Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act_16:31 .... "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,....
So, you're making a stink over this:
Remember Pharoah? God hardened his heart, made him INABLE to comply to Moses' demand, and smote him and his people for not complying. You must not know your Bible very well because this is par for course.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9
You just can't accept God's Sovereignty, thus your continual railing against Him.
...no he isn't, it's the same old complaints against God's Sovereign Grace: "Is there unrighteousness with God?". "Why doth he still find fault?"
You call my brevity of scripture simplistic, I consider your wordy 'explanations' bloviation.
The Gordian Knot of God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility. Let me know if you two come to agreement.
Note that starting with this projection shows the entire community what your nature is, and it makes my point for me. Your treatment of those who hold to God's word is noted by us all.
How does God view sinners?
O God, you take no pleasure in wickedness; you cannot tolerate the sins of the wicked. Therefore, the proud may not stand in your presence, for you hate all who do evil. You will destroy those who tell lies. The Lord detests murderers and deceivers. Because of your unfailing love, I can enter your house; I will worship at your Temple with deepest awe.
(Psalm 5:4-7)
I note that you have no Bible verse that explicitly says that humans freely choose God. It doesn't exist. You have to project it onto the Bible and read it into people who respond to the gospel. But, you cannot provide a clear verse.
Notice the verses I provided above show you man and then show you that it is because of God's unfailing love that the Psalmist can enter God's house. It's not because of what humans do or the choices they make.
I haven't missed it. You make an art of finding a verse or two and then claiming they prove that humans freely choose God. The problem for you is that none of the verses actually say what you say.
Notice your statement of "we do it" and realize you remove grace from salvation.
Great verses. Not one of them supports your claim that "humans freely choose God" to be saved.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Remember Pharoah? God hardened his heart, made him INABLE to comply to Moses' demand, and smote him and his people for not complying. You must not know your Bible very well because this is par for course.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9
You just can't accept God's Sovereignty, thus your continual railing against Him.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but you are a fool.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9
You just can't accept God's Sovereignty, thus your continual railing against Him.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but you are a fool.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
We won't. I just think that for instance his post 103 is perfectly alright. And I believe that no one will be saved without the Holy Spirit. I think that those who are not elect and don't get saved are ones who God has for his own sovereign reasons respected their own free will and allowed them to continue in it until eternity. That's the way men are naturally and so when God sovereignly hardens a Pharoah or an Esau he has done them no wrong. Where @Silverhair and I differ is that he thinks that if men are created to be that way naturally they should not be held responsible. I think that as long as we are able to do what we want, in other words, if we are choosing the evil that we do, then we can be held responsible and saying it's our nature is no excuse. Now that is a few sentences but if that is bloviating you should go do something else. Why not actually respond to that and give your opinion about what I just said?
Also, in your opinion, is what he posted in #103 wrong?
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