??? I was actually defending your point Alan. Who's the fool here?
Go back and peruse the post.
Perhaps I constructed it wrong and you missed that the post is addressed to Silverhair.
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Will People Be Condemned for Not Believing in Jesus though They’ve Never Heard His Name?
- Thread starter Piper
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??? I was actually defending your point Alan. Who's the fool here?
Go back and peruse the post.
Perhaps I constructed it wrong and you missed that the post is addressed to Silverhair.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
KY you must not know your bible very well as Pharaoh hardened his own heart several times before God hardened it. But what does that have to do with spiritual inability that God causes, nothing.
The verses you quote do not support what you think they do. But that is understandable as you only see the bible through your calvinist glasses.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart and God just strengthened Pharaoh resolve in how he would deal with the Jews that he considered his to do with as he pleased.
Pharaoh and Israel
Pharaoh's refusal to be sensitive to the situation or to the pleas of the Hebrew people is spoken of as a heaviness or hardening of the heart
kâbêd H3513
Generally speaking, expressing slowness, dullness or implacability and is found most often in relation to Pharaoh. Kabed usually carries a negative connotation.
châzaq H2388
The basic meaning of this word in the Qal stem is "be(come) strong."
Often in relation to Pharaoh it means to strengthen, harden, be firm, grow firm, be resolute
In general, the Piel is causative of the Qal, "make strong," "strengthen."
Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action.
The Hiphil is "take hold of," "seize,"
Exo_1:11-22 Pharaoh Oppresses Israel
Exo_3:20 I [God] will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt
Exo_7:13 Pharaoh's heart grew hard H2388 (H8799)
Qal [to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)] BDB
Exo_7:14 Pharaoh’s heart is hard H3515
[hard, difficult, burdensome] BDB
Exo_7:22 and Pharaoh's heart grew hard H2388 (H8799)
Qal [to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)] BDB {1 Plague blood}
Exo_8:15 he {Pharaoh} hardened H3513 (H8687) his heart
Hiphil [to make heavy, make dull, make unresponsive] BDB {2 Plague frogs}
Exo_8:19 Pharaoh’s grew hard H2388 (H8799), and he did not heed
Qal [to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)] BDB {3 Plague lice}
Exo_8:32 But Pharaoh hardened H3513 (H8686) his heart
Hiphil [to make heavy, make dull, make unresponsive ] BDB {4 Plague flies}
Exo_9:7 But the heart of Pharaoh became hard H3513 (H8799)
Qal [to be heavy] BDB {5 Plague livestock}
Exo_9:12 But the LORD hardened H2388 (H8762) the heart
Piel [to make rigid, make hard] BDB {6 Plague boils}
Exo_9:34 and he {Pharaoh} hardened H3513 (H8686) his heart
Hiphil [to make heavy, make dull, make unresponsive] BDB {7 Plague hail}
Exo_10:20 But the LORD hardened H2388 (H8762) Pharaoh’s heart
Piel [to make rigid, make hard] BDB {8 Plague locusts}
Exo_10:27 But the LORD hardened H2388 (H8762) Pharaoh’s heart
Piel [to make rigid, make hard] BDB {9 Plague darkness}
Exo_10:1 for I have hardened H3513 (H8689) his heart
Hiphil [to make heavy, make dull, make unresponsive ] BDB
Exo_11:4-5 all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die
{final Plague all firstborn of egypt die}
Exo_11:10 and the LORD hardened H2388 (H8762) Pharaoh’s heart
Piel [to make rigid, make hard] BDB
Exo_14:4 Then I will harden H2388 (H8765) Pharaoh’s heart
Piel [to make rigid, make hard] BDB
Exo_14:8 And the LORD hardened H2388 (H8762) the heart of Pharaoh
Piel [to make rigid, make hard] BDB
Exo_14:17 And I indeed will harden H2388 (H8764) the hearts of the Egyptians
Piel [to make rigid, make hard] BDB
I understand and accept the Sovereignty of God it is the Calvinist definition of God's sovereignty and your abuse of scripture that I rail against.
It's the same thing. Are you dense?
12 And Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them, as Jehovah had spoken unto Moses.
13 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
14 For I will this time send all my plagues upon thy heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. Ex 9
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9
You just can't accept God's Sovereignty, thus your continual railing against Him, or, maybe you're just dense. Either way, your Bible knowledge is very shallow.
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...and all you've done here is shallowly pitted scripture against scripture.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The truth of the bible is obviously something that you do not recognize or accept. You need your calvinism to support your errant views. So trust your calvinism I will trust scripture.
But since you can not contribute much to this debate I will bid you adieu.
Not true.
Not true.
Not true
Not true
Wow! You packed a whole bunch of untruths into your post. You lose all credibility when you try to be a prophet and fail miserably at it.
I truly hope you will bid us adieu and leave.
God said through Paul quite clearly in Acts 27 [24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
[25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
[26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
I am convinced from a strategic viewpoint per se or an overarching theme in Scripture that God sends His Message to any heart that is seeking Him in Truth. That is where we come in. Luke Chapter 11
A search for seeketh, seacheth, heart, reigns, etc will bring most to this conclusion.
Bible, King James Version
Bible, King James Version
Bible, King James Version
@Silverhair spouts a lot of untruths. Most of which is baiting, trolling, and taunts to get one into or remain in one of his rabbit holes of vain humanistic reasoning. But, In the final analysis, he's very shallow in his reasoning from scripture. The bottom line is he just hates Calvinism. That's all he's about. Kill Calvinism. He's obsessed. He has it on his brain - kill Calvinism. He is no student of the word, he's on a mission.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@taisto your response does not surprise me. But what does surprise me is that when I post clear scripture in support of my comments I get attacked by so many calvinists. The responses do not use scripture but rather focus on ad hominem's. Why is that? I must be touching a nerve.
Have I ever claimed to be a prophet, NO. And yes I am sure you would like me to stop posting as it seems many on here do not like to have the mirror held up to them. As I said I just point out the logical errors and misuse of scripture that I see. Now if that upsets you or others then perhaps you should question your understanding of scripture.
I have stated a number of times that calvinists should look at the foundation of their calvinist philosophy and as of this time I doubt that any have done so. If what I have said about the foundations is wrong then show me where. The history is easy enough to find if you want to know the truth.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What a surprising response KY. What did you think I would use to show your error in scripture, the Quran?
To use your phrase, are you so dense? God hardening Pharaoh's heart by strengthening his resolve is not "spiritual inability". You're grasping at straws KY.
KY you seem to be obsessed with defending a philosophy that comes from pagan roots. Why is that? What I see from you are humanistic rants. Your vain attempts to override scripture with your philosophy are dashed on the reality of truth.
Calvinism has served as a corrective for the liberalism that creeps into the church but then they go to the other extreme of determinism. So I am not trying to kill calvinism but rather just to point out the error. In both cases it is the misuse of scripture, the extremes, that have caused the problem.
KY do you believe what the following quote says?
"The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject."
Not grasping, at all. I agree with Paul's conclusion from the example of Pharoah, "he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth". You're the one that's INABLE to accept it.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Whether or not anyone hears and believes the Gospel, or any of the rest of the word of God, no one is without excuse when it comes to repentance.
All of humanity knows who God is, and who Jesus Christ is ( Romans 1 ).
Gospel or no, we are all responsible before the Lord:
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." ( Romans 11:32 ).
37818
Well-Known Member
Romans 2:11-16, ". . . For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. . . ."
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I have no problem with Paul's conclusion but that conclusion does not support the "spiritual inability" that @Alan Gross posted and that @taisto and you, KY agree with. God hardened Pharaoh's heart He did not make it spiritually impossible for Pharaoh to allow the Jews to go. That is just you reading into scripture what is not there.
So KY when do you plan to respond to the rest of that post, if ever?
You have become a one trick pony. You rant on about something that has been dealt with through scripture. But I asked you a direct question and you failed to respond to it. Why is that?
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You're splitting hairs, straining out gnats, making a distinction without a difference. It was impossible for Pharoah to allow the Hebrews to go without God allowing it.
This is just you demonstrating your INABILITY to accept it; "he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth".
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Exo 3:20 So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go.
God was clear that He would break the will/resolve of Pharaoh through the trials that would come upon Egypt. Once again you are reading into the text something that is not there.
KY trust what the scripture actually say and not what you want/need them to say.
Silverhair, you post scripture and fail to realize that the scripture you post supports God's sovereign rule over humanity. There is no need to refute the scripture you use because it proves my point. You simply cannot imagine that those verses refute you.
You don't have to make the claim. When you tell me who I am and what I believe without any knowledge of me, you are attempting to play the role of prophet. I suggest you stop doing such a foolish thing.
You don't have a mirror, Silverhair. You have a prejudice that taints your sight.
No you don't.
You accuse people of being evil "calvinists" whenever your humanist worldview is threatened.
I study the Bible everyday. My understanding of scripture is always questioned since I am not God.
What bothers me is your attempt to accuse and condemn Christians who don't hold to your humanist view of God.
You seem not to hear me when I tell you that I have never read anything John Calvin ever wrote. It would be impossible for me to create a philosophy from something I have never read. We read scripture. You read it and interpret it differently than I do. That's the point of disagreement. But, you won't look there because you cannot defend your interpretation of Bible passages
Quote the statements of John Calvin that you disagree with that you think are his foundation for his philosophy. Tell us why you hate John Calvin. Start a new thread in the Calvin forum and title it: "Why I, Silverhair, Hate John Calvin." Quote statements from Calvin that you think are the foundation of his philosophy. Since I haven't read anything about Calvin, I can read your claims and then see if others who have read Calvin will agree with you.
Silverhair, this topic has nothing to do with what you have been railing about.
Does God condemn people if they have never heard the gospel. The answer is, yes, God does condemn people. He condemns them because they have rebelled and sinned against God, whether they knew it or not.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
All you have done in this post is say I know nothing of scripture and yet you do not show where what I have posted is wrong. So if you disagree with the clear scripture that I post it is not me that you are in disagreement with but rather with the bible.
God also condemns people that have heard the gospel. But what you seem to be implying is that unless they hear the gospel all people are condemned and that is a false conclusion on your part.
Contrary to what you said I do not hate Calvin but I will say that he was a very poor example of someone that claimed to be a Christian. I have seen people say that he was just a man of his time but that is the problem he was just a man of his time where, as a Christian, he should not have been. He should have risen above the petty intrigues of his time but he did not.
As for what you call my railing, that is just me responding to comments made on this or other threads as the case may be. What I have noticed is that many of the responses I receive are attacks on me rather than dealing with the text of the bible I have posted. So it seems all the railing is coming from those that do not like what I have posted.
As I said before I must be hitting a nerve.
There is nothing wrong in the scripture you post.
You have not shown us that the scripture you post teaches what you teach. I have said that the scripture you post proves my point.
Here's your fallacy. I agree with the clarity of scripture that you post. The scripture proves my point. The scripture you post proves you wrong, yet you cannot imagine that to be true.
I am saying that all people are condemned regardless of whether they have heard the gospel or not.
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Our sin condemns us, Silverhair.
There is no false conclusion on my part.
Quote him and show his error in theology based upon his observation of the text, or understand that your fussing is empty of any substance.
King David killed a man so that he could have that man's wife as his own.
Do you see the pettiness of your argument?
What observations of the Bible did Calvin make that you hate?
Silverhair, you never interpret the verses you post.
Share the passage and interpret it for us. Tell us how you read the verse and how you interpret the verse.
I read the verses you post and I think, "Yes, those are in the Bible and I love those verses."
You seem to think that all who read those verses will be appalled by them as though they are revolting. Here's a news flash, those verses are great. What's not great is the philosophical implication you spin on the verses without ever once interpreting the verses.
Try interpreting the verses you are posting.
Your imagination is kicking in again.
You haven't bid adieu. I must be hitting a nerve. (See how that works)
Stop being silly with your petty comments.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You look at the bible through your calvinist lens which your version of God has determined for you to do. You say you love those verses I post but you do not seem to believe them. We could go around this block all night but to what end.
The fact the David had another man killed does not make the fact that Calvin did it also right. You seem to think it does, that is a warped view. You said you have never read any of calvins material. Perhaps you should and then perhaps your eyes would be opened but I doubt it. You seem way to invested in supporting something the basis of which you know nothing about and refuse to check out for yourself.
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