If someone doesn't want to say the words, "Yes, I am a Christian," that's between them and God. It's not my issue, so I'm done.
Y'all can carry on.
Y'all can carry on.
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Will people burn in hell forever?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
- Start date
xdisciplex
New Member
But when you only follow God because you fear God's power to punish you then this is also pretty sad, isn't it?
I am sure that some people do not have a problem with this but I think it's pretty depressing when you're scared of God.
I am sure that some people do not have a problem with this but I think it's pretty depressing when you're scared of God.
true.
what i mean is.
should people on planes be putting on parachutes to be able to improve their flight or should people on planes be putting on parachutes because they've been warned that they'll have to jump 25,000 feet?
how do we flee from the wrath to come? by desiring to be righteous like Christ. so in being righteous in God's eyes... we're fleeing from the wrath to come. we dont want to jump without the parachute. what other option is there? to put the parachute on.
what i mean is.
should people on planes be putting on parachutes to be able to improve their flight or should people on planes be putting on parachutes because they've been warned that they'll have to jump 25,000 feet?
how do we flee from the wrath to come? by desiring to be righteous like Christ. so in being righteous in God's eyes... we're fleeing from the wrath to come. we dont want to jump without the parachute. what other option is there? to put the parachute on.
xdisciplex
New Member
But when your only motivation is fear then this also sucks.
I think your motivation should be love. When Jesus was together with his disciples then I think they had a pretty normal relationship. They respected him and looked up to him but Jesus didn't intimidate them. But imagine the disciples had been scared of Jesus because Jesus had told them that if they argue with each other or do something else then he will have to punish them then this would have scared them and they would most likely have kept a distance to Jesus. But the bible has so many intimidating verses that it's almost impossible not to be scared. This is why I also ask myself wether the relationship which the disciples had with Jesus might not have been something special. But Jesus was here on earth as a human. It was totally different. But now where Jesus is in heaven it's a difference scenario once again. Just think about how John reacted when he saw the glorified Jesus.
John used to sit next to Jesus and put his head on his chest. He was close to Jesus. But when he saw the glorified Jesus he dropped to the floor like a dead man. Isn't this scary?
To me this seems like Jesus, when he was on earth, and the Jesus which we have now are 2 different things because now he's glorified and you cannot just hang out with him and eat some fish.
I think your motivation should be love. When Jesus was together with his disciples then I think they had a pretty normal relationship. They respected him and looked up to him but Jesus didn't intimidate them. But imagine the disciples had been scared of Jesus because Jesus had told them that if they argue with each other or do something else then he will have to punish them then this would have scared them and they would most likely have kept a distance to Jesus. But the bible has so many intimidating verses that it's almost impossible not to be scared. This is why I also ask myself wether the relationship which the disciples had with Jesus might not have been something special. But Jesus was here on earth as a human. It was totally different. But now where Jesus is in heaven it's a difference scenario once again. Just think about how John reacted when he saw the glorified Jesus.
John used to sit next to Jesus and put his head on his chest. He was close to Jesus. But when he saw the glorified Jesus he dropped to the floor like a dead man. Isn't this scary?
To me this seems like Jesus, when he was on earth, and the Jesus which we have now are 2 different things because now he's glorified and you cannot just hang out with him and eat some fish.
Re: serving God in fear
Just a thought concerning your post, we read many times in scripture to "fear God" we are told that fear is the beginning of wisdom. For example I fear heat, snakes, large ugly spiders and other things I am not paranoid in my fear of these things but I stay away from them because they can do great damage under the right circumstances. Our fear of God is prompted by what God is capable of doing and our love of God is based on the same principle. God can and does love the vilest of sinners and he can and will judge the most righteous of men (apart from Christ).
Paul said work out your salvation with fear and trembling. He did not say work for your salvation.
James says in Jude 1:23 and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Therefore we are to have a very healthy fear of God Psalms 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
Thjplgvp
xdisciplex said:But when you only follow God because you fear God's power to punish you then this is also pretty sad, isn't it?
I am sure that some people do not have a problem with this but I think it's pretty depressing when you're scared of God.
Just a thought concerning your post, we read many times in scripture to "fear God" we are told that fear is the beginning of wisdom. For example I fear heat, snakes, large ugly spiders and other things I am not paranoid in my fear of these things but I stay away from them because they can do great damage under the right circumstances. Our fear of God is prompted by what God is capable of doing and our love of God is based on the same principle. God can and does love the vilest of sinners and he can and will judge the most righteous of men (apart from Christ).
Paul said work out your salvation with fear and trembling. He did not say work for your salvation.
James says in Jude 1:23 and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Therefore we are to have a very healthy fear of God Psalms 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
Thjplgvp
Ex-disciple,
On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the importance or level of truth of the following?
a) God as Creator.
b) Jesus as Saviour.
c) Me as a Sinner.
d) Bible reliable truth for past, present, and future.
e) Daily personal prayer/Bible study.
f) Attending church regularly.
Thanks,
Ciela
On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the importance or level of truth of the following?
a) God as Creator.
b) Jesus as Saviour.
c) Me as a Sinner.
d) Bible reliable truth for past, present, and future.
e) Daily personal prayer/Bible study.
f) Attending church regularly.
Thanks,
Ciela
gekko said:
Where are the others? I can't speak for anyone but myself.
I won't be back to answer anymore of these questions.
I have very sincerely answered many of them. I have only asked two very simple questions in return and have gotten no answer.
This is my last statement. There is an old saying, "if you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen."
xdisciplex has a right to ask anything that he wants to ask. It's a public forum. And because it is a public forum, he also should allow for people asking him "why" he is asking all of these questions and to elaborate on his spiritual status.
xdisciplex has asked approximately 100 of these types of questions. I have only asked 2.
It only seems fair to me these threads to be at least a two-way street.
I leave you all to these threads and have a nice life.
Last edited:
Ex-disciple,
On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the importance or level of truth of the following?
a) God as Creator.
b) Jesus as Saviour.
c) Me as a Sinner.
d) Bible reliable truth for past, present, and future.
e) Daily personal prayer/Bible study.
f) Attending church regularly.
Thanks,
Ciela
On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the importance or level of truth of the following?
a) God as Creator.
b) Jesus as Saviour.
c) Me as a Sinner.
d) Bible reliable truth for past, present, and future.
e) Daily personal prayer/Bible study.
f) Attending church regularly.
Thanks,
Ciela
xdisciplex
New Member
Ciela said:
Oh man... you're so cute.
First of all my name is not ex-disciple but xdisciplex.
And second of all I am not going to play this game. Do you think I don't know what these questions are supposed to do? And then this 1-10 stuff, I mean come on. Do you have some sort of calculator which allows you to calculate how christian I am? Do you think you can judge wether I am a christian or not?
Okay, I'll bite, but this is just repeating what I've said before.gekko said:
I don't think the Bible teaches that hell is a place of eternal torment. I know that this view has been quite popular during the church's history, but I think this is due to two main factors. First, Platonic philosophy crept into the church pretty early, bringing with it the idea of an indestructible soul that even God cannot (or will not) destroy. This is in direct contrast to Scripture (for starters, look at how the Bible talks about the tree of life, especially in Genesis 3:22-24). Second, in the Middle Ages, the idea of the wicked burning for eternity was actually quite popular -- it was a favourite choice for art and literature -- perhaps due to the mindset of the time.xdisciplex said:
The eternal torment view seems to be based on taking literary passages literally while reinterpreting the clearer passages. For instance, Revelation 14:10-11 and 20:10-15 describe torment in the lake of fire, but what is interesting is who all is being tormented. Revelation 20:14 says, "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." To me, this seems to not be literal, since I don't see how something like death can be tormented by fire. We know from other passages that death will be conquered and be no more. This passage seems to be a picture of that rather than a concrete, literal reality.
The other main prooftext is the story of the rich man and Lazarus, and personally I think there's strong reasons for considering that story to be a parable. It may even be a Jewish story that was already commonly known that Jesus turned on its ear by giving it a new twist. Taking the story as an accurate picture of hell raises other issues, such as why the wicked and righteous can see each other and speak to each other. Many who take it literally instead view this as in intermediate state at that time, and not representative of the final fate of the wicked. In any case, I don't think a doctrine on hell should be formulated mainly from a symbolic vision and a possible parable.
The more prosaic descriptions of hell often seem to point to eventual destruction. John 3:16 presents two options: to gain everlasting life or to perish. While I do think everyone will be raised to face judgement, I don't think everyone will also be given everlasting life to spend in a different location. Matthew 10:28 says, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Other similar verses include 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Peter 2:12, and 2 Peter 3:9. The eternal torment view has to constantly redefine words like "perish" and "destroy" so they don't mean what they seem to mean.
There's also interesting examples used of what the eternal punishment is like. Jude 1:7 says that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah serves as an example of the punishment of eternal fire. The only way to add eternal torment to that is to say that the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah are now being tormented eternally by fire. But, that requires reading a presumption of eternal torment into the text regardless of what it states, and it also negates the historical example of what happened to the cities, which is what Jude refers to. Mark 9:43-48 speaks of a place where flames and worms are eternal, but it does not say that those thrown into this place will live forever. In fact, by checking the passage Jesus quotes in Isaiah 66:24, we see that it is talking about dead bodies being consumed by worm and flame in a garbage dump, and not about torment of living souls.
This view also allows a more literal interpretation of the passages that talk about hell being more bearable for some, and of some being beaten with more blows than others. There may be a form of torment (varying from person to person), but the end of it is destruction. To me, that seems more likely that a Dante-esque hell broken into sections with different settings on the thermostat.
Finally, this view seems consistent with the idea that hell is separation from God. According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9: "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." While people can be separated from God today, ultimate separation must result in ceasing to exist, because God is the eternal I AM. Because God is and God is omnipresent, to be totally separated from God is to not be. As a result, that wonderful prophecy from 1 Corinthians 15:28 can some day be fulfilled: "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." God may be all in all because in eternity nothing will exist that is in rebellion to God.
About the only verse that gives me second thoughts about this view is Matthew 25:26: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." But even here, destruction is a punishment with eternal consequences: those who ultimately reject God, the author of life, will not exist for all eternity.
xdisciplex
New Member
Hi Mercury.
Quite a few interesting points. I'm curious what the others will say because I don't really know what to say.
Quite a few interesting points. I'm curious what the others will say because I don't really know what to say.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
HP: Here is but another example of hell being clearly defined as a place of eternal torment and suffering. The same idea is repeated several times in the NT as well.
HP: Here is but another example of hell being clearly defined as a place of eternal torment and suffering. The same idea is repeated several times in the NT as well.
xdisciplex
New Member
Blammo said:
Very funny..
xdisciplex said:
It's a real site!!! I'm not kidding.... www.godlessgeeks.com :wavey:
BTW, are you a christian? You still haven't answered.
xdisciplex
New Member
Why do you link to such a site? This is not very responsible.