Will people burn in hell forever?

[BobRyan]

#1.
Jesus said it IS to "destroy BOTH body and Soul" Matt 10:28.

#2
Jude says it is not ONLY to "Destroy both body and soul in hell" (as Christ states in Matt 10) but is ALSO to "Convict all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds"

#3.
- John says that "they are judged ACCORDING to their deeds " Rev 20:12

#4.
and Christ said that in this judgment "according to deeds" - there is PROPORTIONAL degrees of punishment "he who KNEW his master's will and did NOT get read or act in accord with his will, shall receive MANY lashes, but he one who DID NOT KNOW it and committed deeds worthy of flogging will receive but FEW. And from everyone who has been given MUCH shall be required and to whom they entruested MUCH of him they will ask all the more. I have come TO CAST FIRE DOWN upon the earth and HOW I wish it were already kindled" Luke 12:47-48

#5. Christ does NOT predict INFINITE punishment is owed and that it can never be paid in full - RATHER Christ said "you shall not get out of there UNTIL you HAVE PAID the LAST cent". Luke 12:59

Clearly the PURPOSE of God includes CONVICTION of ALL their sins AS WELL AS degrees of punishment in accordance with those deeds and FULL payment.

This judgment also has an end result of NO MORE SIN, and no more SINNERS - including Satan HIMSELF (once the fire has done it's DESTROYING work of BURNING UP the wicked and the destruction of BOTH Body and soul in hell.

Mal 4:1,3 the WICKED are set ablaze and reduced to ashes under your feet - including the ROOT of the wicked - Satan HIMSELF

Ez 28:13-19 Satan "shall BE NO MORE"

 

[xdisciplex]

Satan will ultiimately "be turned to ashes" as will the wicked of both angels and mankind.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok so we see that Ezek 28 "Satan shall be no more" and we see in Rev 20 "Tormented day and night forever and ever".

In Isaiah 34 :5-15 it is interesting that the prophet describes a future punishment of the nation of Edom as involving the land being set ablaze where, "The streams thereof shall be turned into burning pitch andthe dust into brimstone, and the land shall become burning pitch.It shall NOT be quenched night nor day ; the smoke thereof will go up forever"


Isaiah 34:verses 9-10 (This verse is remarkably similar to a description of a firey punishment in the book of Revelation where a similar phrase is used) but then it goes on in the next couple of verses to describe birds coming to live there and thorny plants taking root there ---an unlikely thing to happen if the imagery of Isaiah 34 describes literal endles burning of the Land of Edom

 

[xdisciplex]

Hmmm...
this is indeed strange.
But if this is so clear then why is the mainstream opinion that hell is eternal? Men come up with so many explanations for this. Because God is holy and he is eternal then his wrath upon sin is also eternal and since his wrath is eternal it also burns down on the unbelievers and Satan for all eternity and so on.

 

[BobRyan]

goes back to the RCC thread. The errors introduced by the RCC are many and one can not expect the Protestant reformation to have discovered every last one.

In addition - in this case as you point out - there are some pretty good texts for suffering and torment forever.

But you have to put the whole picture together to see the teaching.

It is kind of like a parent telling a child "If you don't heed my warning and you go out in the street and play games awful terrible horrible things will happen"

 

[BobRyan]

Summary -

Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

Fiery Hell == Eternal Fire == Fire and Brimstone == Second Death (lake of fire)

1.
Eternal fire = Hell (fiery Hell). (Matt 18:8-9) and “full payment” for the debt of sin is made there. Matt 18:34-35
The final Judgment is one of “Eternal Fire” Jude 7 and Sodom shows that..

2.
The eternal fire sent to Sodom was in the form of “Fire and Brimstone: (Luke 17:2-30) and it will be JUST THE SAME in the judgment of Christ on the wicked.

3. The second Death is that Fire and Brimstone judgment sent upon the wicked after the millennium (Rev 21:8):

 

[BobRyan]

Fiery Hell – is in fact “eternal fire”

Matt 18:8-9
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
9 If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

Jude 7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”[/b]. So [b]eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone[/b] and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be [b]just the same

on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”

Rev 21:
8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Hades in Rev 20 is the Grave – and is contrasted to “the sea” in this chapter. In Matt 10 and Luke 17 as shown above – “Hell” is in fact fiery Gehenna – the lake of Fire.

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here we notice again that it is the “sea” and the “Grave” that give up the dead – these are terms that would appear to apply to the earth. So also we see that the wicked are throne into the lake of fire – first mentioned in Rev 19 at the appearing of Christ prior to the 1000 years.

The term "hell" in Rev 20 is not the one that we see in Matt 10. In Rev 20 we have “Hades” which is literally the dead in “graves”. This makes perfect sense when we note that “The Sea and the grave” are giving up what is in the. WERE this really some kind of afterlife-hell then many of those who went down into the sea would ALSO be in Hell!

Here Jamieson,Fausset,Brown[/b] show that the term "Hades" is used to represent "grave" in Rev 20 not "Hell fire".

13. death and hell--Greek, "Hades." The essential identity of the dying and risen body is hereby shown; for the sea and grave give up their dead. The body that sinned or served God shall, in righteous retribution, be the body also that shall suffer or be rewarded. The "sea" may have a symbolical [CLUVER from AUGUSTINE], besides the literal meaning, as, in Re 8:8; 12:12; 13:1; 18:17, 19; so "death" and "hell" are personifications (compare Re 21:1). But the literal sense need hardly be departed from: all the different regions wherein the bodies and souls of men had been, gave them up.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020

http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020

 

[BobRyan]

Death is ended.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


[b]The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.[/b]


The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

“You will make them a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The Lord will swallow them up in His wrath, [b]fire will devour them. Their offspring you will Destroy from the earth..”

[/quote]

=======================================================

The wicked will “be no more”

Ezek 28:13-19 – Satan will “be no more” Ashes (2Peter 2:6 Jude 7)

Mal 4:1,3 The wicked will be set ablaze – turned to ashes, nothing left

Ps 59:13 The wicked are “destroyed” they will “be no more”
“Destroy them in wrath – Destroy them that they may be No More”

Ps 104:35 sinners will be consumed – they will “be no more”
Ps 1:6 – not only the wicked – but “wickedness perishes”
Ps 10:15 God seeks out wickedness “until He finds none”

Prov 24:19-20 The wicked have a bad future – and THEN they have “no future”

 

[BobRyan]

The wicked are “consumed”

Rev 20:9
Heb 10:27
2Peter 3:7-12

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.[/b]
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, [b]not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of [b]the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat![/B]

Ezek 28:18
Ps 104:35

 

[Jim1999]

IF eternal life for the believer is truly eternal, forever and ever..then, so is it true of eternal damnation, whether it be an eternal fire or some other torment,,it is separation from God...plain and simple. You can't have one and not the other, or eternal doesn't mean a thing.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[BobRyan]

good point - forget those Bible texts I posted - read other ones instead.

 

[Mercury]

IF eternal life for the believer is truly eternal, forever and ever..then, so is it true of eternal damnation

Why? Why can't it be what Jesus said: "whoever believes in him [Jesus] will not perish but have everlasting life". Two options: everlasting life or perishing. Why does everlasting life have to be given to everyone?

it is separation from God...plain and simple.

Do you believe God is omnipresent? If so, what does it mean to be entirely and irrevocably separated from his presence?

You can't have one and not the other, or eternal doesn't mean a thing.

If literal destruction isn't an eternal punishment, when does it end? When does the destroyed person resume their life?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Why can't it be true what the rich man said, 'I am tormented in this flame'? Why can't it be true what Jesus said, 'where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched'? Why can't it be true what Abraham said to the rich man, 'Now Lazarus is comforted and thou art tormented'? I notice Abraham did not say, 'Now you are being annihilated.'

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1999
IF eternal life for the believer is truly eternal, forever and ever..then, so is it true of eternal damnation

Mercury said --
Why? Why can't it be what Jesus said: "whoever believes in him [Jesus] will not perish but have everlasting life". Two options: everlasting life or perishing. Why does everlasting life have to be given to everyone?

Good point.

 

[Mercury]

standingfirm, I see that you are trying to pit some passages against other passages. I don't think that's the right way to arrive at a conclusion on what the Bible says about a topic. Instead, we should look at everything the Bible says about it and find out what it means taken as a whole. That's why my initial post in this thread spent more time on the passages raised against my view than the ones that naturally support it. Instead of countering one verse with another, I'd like to see how you deal with the verses that are troublesome for your view.

Why can't it be true what the rich man said, 'I am tormented in this flame'?

I think the purpose of this story is to illustrate how some will remain in unbelief even if someone rises from the dead, but even if its purpose were to explain the technical details of hell, it does not point to eternal torment. I also think that those who reach hell will suffer, but the end of it will be destruction.

Why can't it be true what Jesus said, 'where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched'?

Do you think the worm refers to the person? If you check Isaiah 66, which Jesus is quoting, you'll see that the worms are literal worms, and they are devouring corpses, not living souls. As for the unquenchable nature of the flames, that is illustrated by other passages that show that unquenchable fires are not put out until they accomplish their purpose, consuming every last bit of fuel. Many unquenchable fires described in the Bible are no longer burning, but that does not make those passages in error.

Why can't it be true what Abraham said to the rich man, 'Now Lazarus is comforted and thou art tormented'? I notice Abraham did not say, 'Now you are being annihilated.'

Nor did Abraham say, "Now you will be tormented for eternity."

 

[BobRyan]

Why can't it be true what the rich man said, 'I am tormented in this flame'? Why can't it be true what Jesus said, 'where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched'? Why can't it be true what Abraham said to the rich man, 'Now Lazarus is comforted and thou art tormented'? I notice Abraham did not say, 'Now you are being annihilated.'

Ahh Luke 16 -- what you really meant to ask is "

Why can't it be true that all the saints who die go to sit in Abraham's lap just like the parable says?

Why can't it be true that the wicked dead pray to the dead saints just like the parable says?

Why can't it be true that THE supreme authority to which all appeal is Abraham not God and Abraham is in charge of all dead saints like the Parable says?"

oh no wait! That is the part of the Parable that you DON't Want to be true!!

Ok I get it.

What about the SUMMARY of the Parable that Christ gives - do you want that to also NOT be true?

"IF they will not listen to Moses then NEITHER will they listen to one who RISES FROM the DEAD (Christ)"

 

[Revmitchell]

Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, F1 but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange F2 flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


That covers the reality of eternity in hell.

What scriptual evidence of anhilation do you think you have?

 

[Mercury]

That covers the reality of eternity in hell.

What scriptual evidence of anhilation do you think you have?

A good start is that last passage you mentioned, which shows that the punishment Sodom and Gomorrha suffered is "in like manner" to the punishment of eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed. That's what the everlasting fire that consumed those cities did (and no, it isn't still burning).

For more, check out Matthew 10:28, John 3:16, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 15:28, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 2 Peter 2:12, and 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen Revmitchell,

Eternity is a long time and suffering will be for all eternity if one rejects Christ.

 

[Revmitchell]

A good start is that last passage you mentioned, which shows that the punishment Sodom and Gomorrha suffered is "in like manner" to the punishment of eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed. That's what the everlasting fire that consumed those cities did (and no, it isn't still burning).

For more, check out Matthew 10:28, John 3:16, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 15:28, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 2 Peter 2:12, and 2 Peter 3:9.

There is nothing in any of those passages that holds any context to anhilation. But what you will find in each of those passages that the fire was and is eternal. As in without end. That is the context of those passages. And context is king.