Will people burn in hell forever?

[standingfirminChrist]

'where their worm dieth not'

Ya know, if the worm is not annihilated, it stands to reason that the person in hell will not be annihilated either.

 

[Brother Bob]

Unless they can dance real real fast!!

 

[Mercury]

There is nothing in any of those passages that holds any context to anhilation. But what you will find in each of those passages that the fire was and is eternal. As in without end. That is the context of those passages. And context is king.

Your own prooftext shows that context does not support your view. Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, and they were destroyed. Jude uses this historical example, documented in the Old Testament, to show what eternal fire is. It is fire that entirely consumes.

'where their worm dieth not'

Ya know, if the worm is not annihilated, it stands to reason that the person in hell will not be annihilated either.

Remember, context is king. The worms are devouring corpses, not conscious souls.

"For behold, the LORD will come in fire,
and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment,
and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by the LORD shall be many. ...

"And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:15-16, 24, ESV)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

So the rich man was not conscious when he said, 'I am tormented in this flame.'? Hmmmmm, wouldn't that make my Lord and Savior a liar?

Jesus is not a liar. He said there would be eternal suffering, I am sure He meant it.

 

[Mercury]

So the rich man was not conscious when he said, 'I am tormented in this flame.'?

I was providing the context of Isaiah 66. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not found in Isaiah 66. It is in the New Testament in Luke 16.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

No rest? No rest blows a hole in the annihilation theory. If they are totally annihilated, they would get their rest, for they would no longer be tormented.

Since the smoke rises forever and ever, they must be being tormented for ever and ever; else the smoke would eventually die out.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I was providing the context of Isaiah 66. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not found in Isaiah 66. It is in the New Testament in Luke 16.

I am quite aware of where the account of the rich man and Lazarus is found. I am also aware that it was the words of our Lord who gave that account. Now, if the soul is annihilated as many would suggest, why was the rich man not annihilated? Was he not conscious during the torment? My Bible says he was.

 

[Mercury]

Jesus is not a liar. He said there would be eternal suffering, I am sure He meant it.

Again, you are being selective and ignoring the other things Jesus said. (And further, the phrase "eternal suffering" is not found in Scripture, and I have addressed the verses that come close.) I have shown how I interpret passages that you claim support your view. You have simply ignored the passages that contradict your view.

Jesus said:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, ESV)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Paul said:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28; in other words, in eternity no place will exist where God is not fully present)

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

Peter said:

"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing." (2 Peter 2:12-13a)

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Is anyone in favour of the eternal conscious torment view of hell going to actually address these texts?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If annihilation were true, then there would be no need for man to fear He who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. A few moments in hell and one would be unconscious and then gone completely. Why fear that which only lasts for just a little while? NO, my friend, one will suffer in those flames, one will cry out for water, one will beg for mercy, but no mercy will be found.

 

[Mercury]

Now, if the soul is annihilated as many would suggest, why was the rich man not annihilated?

Well, it would be rather difficult to have a story where an annihilated person holds a conversation with someone else. The point Jesus was making required the rich man to be conscious and within earshot of Lazarus, so that's how the story is told.

But, I know you think that it's more than an illustrative story and also gives the details of the afterlife. Even by that standard, it still falls short of supporting your case. Yes, it does show the rich man in torment. It makes no statement about the length of that torment, or its ultimate result.

 

[Mercury]

If annihilation were true, then there would be no need for man to fear He who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. A few moments in hell and one would be unconscious and then gone completely.

By what source of revelation did you discover how long it would take a person, body and soul, to be destroyed or lose consciousness?

Also, what if the fear is not just due to what one has waiting for them, but also what one is missing out on? Wouldn't it be quite a fearsome thing to miss out on eternal life with Jesus? Sounds like grounds for weeping and gnashing of teeth to me. The greatest tragedy of those who reject Jesus isn't that they will be tormented or destroyed, but that they will never be reconciled and united with their Creator.

 

[Revmitchell]

Again, you are being selective and ignoring the other things Jesus said. (And further, the phrase "eternal suffering" is not found in Scripture, and I have addressed the verses that come close.) I have shown how I interpret passages that you claim support your view. You have simply ignored the passages that contradict your view.

Jesus said:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, ESV)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Paul said:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28; in other words, in eternity no place will exist where God is not fully present)

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

Peter said:

"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing." (2 Peter 2:12-13a)

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Is anyone in favour of the eternal conscious torment view of hell going to actually address these texts?

You choose texts that work against your view. the word destroy in Matt 10:28 does not mean anhilation but simply means to send to eternal torment. I suggest you do a word study in the greek to clear this up.

2 Peter 3:9 does not fit within the context of our discussion.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 again if you will do a greek word study you will find that it does not support your view.

Your method of study appears to be lacking in the arena of discovering context. It requires much more work than you are giving it.

 

[Revmitchell]

double post

 

[Mercury]

You choose texts that work against your view. the word destroy in Matt 10:28 does not mean anhilation but simply means to send to eternal torment. I suggest you do a word study in the greek to clear this up.

No, it actually does mean what it says. It is true that those who believe in eternal torment have to redefine the word, but that is based on reconciling it with their position.

2 Peter 3:9 does not fit within the context of our discussion.

The passage may simply refer to physical death before Christ's coming, or it may refer to perishing in the same sense as John 3:16. It's debatable either way.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 again if you will do a greek word study you will find that it does not support your view.

No, the Greek seems to have been translated quite accurately in most English translations.

 

[Revmitchell]

I did not say it was mistranslated. But you assume that destroy can only mean anhilation. However the word destroy also refers to eternal punishment.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Strong's Number: 622[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]ajpovllumi[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (575) and the base of (3639)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Apollumi[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1:394,67[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ap-ol'-loo-mee [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   2. render useless
   3. to kill
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
   1. to lose

[/FONT]

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The word destruction in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 can also be translated ruin. In some parts of Greece, one can visit ancient ruins. Now those buildings were destroyed, yet parts of them are still there.

One who is destroyed in the lake of fire will still be there and will still suffer, just as Christ said in Mark 9 'where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.'

 

[Mercury]

I did not say it was mistranslated. But you assume that destroy can only mean anhilation. However the word destroy also refers to eternal punishment.

As that lexicon quote shows, that is a metaphorical use of the word, and not one that is plain from Scripture itself. If you are convinced that eternal torment is true on other grounds, then words like "destruction" and "perish" must metaphorically mean eternal torment, so that definition is added. However, this is circular reasoning when it comes to determining whether hell is eternal torment in the first place.

Anyway, I'm off for the night. Though we're on different sides here, I appreciate where you and others are coming from, and have enjoyed the discussion.

:wavey:

 

[Marcia]

But an interesting question would be wether unsaved people also have eternal life. Because the bible says those which trust in Jesus have eternal life. This sounds like all the unbelievers do not live eternally.
People which have this opinion also point at Genesis where God says this:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We have eternal life as believers but unbelievers have eternal death -- always dying but it never comes to an end. So unbeliever do go on forever after death, but it's death, not life. Death in biblical terms for unbelievers means eternal separation from God.

I think someone on the BB explained it this way on a thread on immortality, and it's the best explanation I've ever heard. I wish I could recall who said it.

 

[JFox1]

Unfortunately, the punishment is everlasting. According to the New Greek English Interlinear New Testament by Robert K. Brown and Philip W. Comfort:

AND THE DEVIL, THE ONE DECEIVING THEM, WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND SULFUR, WHERE BOTH THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET (ARE), AND THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT INTO THE AGES OF THE AGES. Revelation 20:10.

 

[BobRyan]

Mt 18:8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mr 9:43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Mr 9:44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, F1 but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange F2 flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

That covers the reality of eternity in hell.

What scriptual evidence of anhilation do you think you have?

Good points -

Eternal fire -- go see what you find in Sodom and Gomorrha - SEE IF you see them "eternally buring" or COMPLETELY DESTROYED when subjected to "eternal fire" (fire FROM GOD not fire that IS God).

They were "consumed" by "unquenchable" fire - it could not be put out - so it CONSUMED them completely nothing could stop it.