Wine & Alcohol part 37

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

So you are admitting that the wine they had-- regardless of source-- was alcoholic?

No, I am showing the wine could not have been alcoholic at that party at all.

If it were alcoholic wine that was served at that wedding, Jesus would have been adding to their drunkenness to serve more.

It was not alcoholic wine at the feast. And Christ would not have served that wine that is the venom of asps, fermented to anyone.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I agree and I even brought this up on the previous thread. However, His Blood..., you never addressed my earlier questions from earlier in this thread.

AF, I am sorry, can you repeat the questions?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

ituttut,

'His Blood' speaks neither of grape juice, nor wine. Christ's blood spoke my name on the cross. I got the nic from a song someone wrote.

 

[webdog]

One glass is part of intoxication whether one feels a buzz or not.

OK, one potato chip is a part of gluttony whether one feels full or not.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not...

 

[Jack Matthews]

The Greek and Aramaic terms are interchangeable. There was no distinction between "Wine" and "Fruit of the Vine" because the alcohol content of fruit drinks and fermentation process were preservative in nature.

When Jesus turned the water into wine, it was, as the scripture clearly, succinctly, and in the original languages clearly says, "the best, saved for last." No argument can be made from scripture against the drinking of an alcoholic beverage on that basis alone. The facts and the scriptures just do not support it. Nothing that has been posted here forbids the drinking of alcohol period. That comes from the rural Appalachian and Deep South culture of America.

Good arguments can be made against drinking most alcoholic beverages today by the simple fact that most of them are not good for you at all, beer and stronger drinks like whiskey included. Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and drinking beer or whiskey does nothing for it. However, even the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. Wine, in moderation, not only enhances digestion, especially for those who have ailments, but it also cuts down on bad cholesterol. In moderation. And my personal interpretation of that limits its use to a mealtime beverage.

 

[Darrell]

Proverbs 20:1

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Notice this verse does not say, …..”and whosever drinks is deceived thereby is not wise” The emphasis is on those who are deceived by alcohol.

Ephesians 5:18

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Some people interpret this verse to say, “And do not drink wine, wherein is excess..” The emphasis is on “be not drunk with wine”

Too many Christians look at alcohol through the eyes of the American culture. Culture needs to be thrown out, and GOD’s word needs to be taken in, unconditionally.

The Bible says that drunkenness is sin. I believe it, and that settles it.

In the love of Christ!

 

[Darrell]

The Greek and Aramaic terms are interchangeable. There was no distinction between "Wine" and "Fruit of the Vine" because the alcohol content of fruit drinks and fermentation process were preservative in nature.

When Jesus turned the water into wine, it was, as the scripture clearly, succinctly, and in the original languages clearly says, "the best, saved for last." No argument can be made from scripture against the drinking of an alcoholic beverage on that basis alone. The facts and the scriptures just do not support it. Nothing that has been posted here forbids the drinking of alcohol period. That comes from the rural Appalachian and Deep South culture of America.

Good arguments can be made against drinking most alcoholic beverages today by the simple fact that most of them are not good for you at all, beer and stronger drinks like whiskey included. Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and drinking beer or whiskey does nothing for it. However, even the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. Wine, in moderation, not only enhances digestion, especially for those who have ailments, but it also cuts down on bad cholesterol. In moderation. And my personal interpretation of that limits its use to a mealtime beverage.

Great post, Jack. Why can't Christians take God's word on face value alone? God does not encourage Christians to drink. There are plenty of warnings! I agree that there are health benefits to drinking in moderation. But, the benefits must be considered with the strong potential for abuse of this product, in my opinion.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

1O REASONS WHY THE WINE JESUS MADE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALCOHOLIC

1. The vast quantity created (between 120 and 180 gallons).

This amount of intoxicating wine would have turned the wedding feast into a drunken brawl. Scholars who try to overcome this by suggesting that not all the water was turned into wine, but only that which was drawn off, only complicate things. For did not Christ know all things? He would know exactly how many people would drink one cup. Why then did He not have the attendants fill only one pot? Or even two pots, etc.? No, the miracle was divine wisdom and providence in action. Christ's abundant wisdom and providence made it obvious that such an amount could not have been intoxicating, thereby protecting His flawless reputation.


2. Christ's sinlessness and moral perfection.

Jesus Himself said in John 8:46:
Which of you convinceth me of sin?

In other words, no one was able to convict or find Him guilty of the slightest sin. Thus He declares His sinless and moral perfection. Those scholars, who talk about Christ's impeccability (perfection) and almost in the same breath declare that He was a drinker and an advocate of alcoholic wine, are totally in error. Concerning Christ's character, Hendrickson states:

Today's radical theologian is inconsistant when on the one hand he loudly proclaims the moral perfection of Jesus; yet on the other hand rejects His majestic claims! If Jesus is sinless, His claims should be accepted. Any other course is positively wicked.

Although this statement refers to rejecting Jesus as God, declaring that He was a drinker and that He made intoxicating wine is not far from this dangerous stance. Even Jesus' enemies realized that drinking was sin and call Him a winebibber (wine drinker, Matt. 11:19; Luke 7:34) and what is even more amazing, people who profess to be Christians accuse Him of the same thing!
Many sinners, some of whom have been misinformed by Christians on this issue, also realize that drinking is sin and object to Jesus' claims on those grounds. R.A. Torrey explains this point:

A stock objection against the Bible, and not only against the Bible but against Jesus Christ Himself, is is found in the story of Jesus turning the water into wine at the marriage festival at Cana of Galilee as recorded in John 2:1-11.

Unfortunately, this kind of view only comes from those who do not really understand who Jesus is. An even sadder point is that many Christians do more to hinder unbelievers from coming to Christ by misrepresenting His character when it comes to the drink issue.

We will now look at some New Testament Scripture passages, which reaffirm Jesus' sinlessness and perfection, in the light of which makes it inconceivable that our Lord could have drank or created alcoholic beverages. These read:

1 John 3:5 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1 Peter 2:22 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Hebrews 7:26 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled,
separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

In the light of these Biblical facts, it is plain that those who suggest that Jesus drank or created alcoholic wine have a very dim conception of His holiness indeed.

• Man’s Sinfulness

John 4:24, 25 states:
John 4:24-25 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Jesus also stated:
John 3:19 …men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

These passages alone tell us that Jesus would not have bowed to the sinful desires of men by creating intoxicating wine. As the Scripture states, Jesus knew what was in man, that is, He knew their sinful hearts and evil desires. They indeed loved darkness rather than light.
Those commentators of the Bible therefore, who state such arguments such as, “temperance” is one of the qualities mentioned under the fruit of the Spirit. Or that the guests at the wedding feast, which Christ attended at Cana of Galilee, were a select and holy band of people, who would therefore not drink too much, is not a valid reason for explaining away why Christ would not have created intoxicating wine. Since all were sinners.
Such an act of making alcoholic wine would not have produced faith in Him as the glorious Son of God. Instead it would have merely identified Him as another sinful man with the usual sinful desires for finding pleasure in evil things.

• Temptation

In Matthew 6:13, Jesus states:

Matthew 6:13 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…

Christ would not therefore have tempted men to become drunkards, which would mean exclusion from the kingdom of God in which He Himself proclaimed.

• Christ would have approved of social drinking.

Pubs, bars, etc., would therefore be the accepted thing amongst Christians if the wine Christ made was alcoholic as some insist. Christ could also be held responsible to a large extent for the problem of alcoholism today, as the Encyclopedia Britannica points out:

First in the realm of health, the most serious and detrimental effect is alcoholism. Although drinking itself is hardly ever regarded as the sufficient cause of alcoholism, this disease could not arise without the use of alcohol.

(continued)
​

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

• It was and is in the nature of Christ to do good.

The Apostle Peter stated in Acts 10:38:

Acts 10:38 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:
who went about doing good…
Albert Barnes explains this principle in the light of Jesus’ first miracle:
Jesus delighted to do good. In the very beginning of His ministry He worked a miracle to show His benevolence. This was the appropriate commencement of a life in which He was to go about doing good. He seized every opportunity of doing it; and at a marriage feast, as well as among the sick and poor, He showed the character of which He always sustained – that of a benefactor of mankind. An argument cannot be drawn from this instance in favor of intemperate drinking. There is no evidence that any who were present on that occasion drank too freely. Nor can an argument be drawn from this case in favour even of drinking wine, such as we have. The common wine of Judea was the pure juice of the grape, without any mixture of alcohol, and was harmless. It was the common drink of the people, and it did not tend to produce intoxication.

Again, after consideration of these facts, it is inconceivable from a Biblical perspective, to suggest that our Lord would have created an alcoholic substance which is not good but is harmful to the body. Also, Jesus the Great Physician and Creator of our bodies, who knows all things, designed our bodies to reject alcohol (in any quantity) because of its destructive potential. He therefore would not have bestowed upon men something which He is in infinite knowledge, purposely designed our complex bodies to reject. The Encyclopedia Britannica bears this out:

The body begins to dispose of alcohol immediately after it is absorbed.

This scientific fact is borne out by the Spirit inspired writer of 1 Samuel 25:37 when referring to Nabal’s complete recovery from drunkenness:

1 Samuel 25:37 37 But it came to pass in the morning, when the wine was gone out of Nabal, and his wife had told him these things, that his heart died within him, and he became as a stone.

Again, after consideration of the facts, can we accuse our Lord and Creator of ignorance?

• Christ Himself warned against drunkenness and of drinking, and drinking with drunkards.

Matthew 24:45-51 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 12:45-46 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

• Christ Himself denied that He was a wine drinker (winebibber).

When accused of this vice, Jesus stated, …But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matthew 11:18,19; Luke 7:33,34). A paraphrase of this statement would read:


I am not a glutton neither am I a wine drinker, or a lover of evil deeds of tax collectors and sinners, and this fact will be justly declared by those who are my true children.

Today, those who are His true children will follow His example …that we might be partakers of His Holiness. (Hebrews 12:10b).

• The Old Testament condemned drinking as well as drunkenness. (Proverbs 20:1; 23:31-35)

Since Christ was well versed in the Old Testament and did not contradict its teachings, the truth of His abstinence from alcoholic wine is firmly established.

• He would have violated His own laws of Creation.

Speaking of Christ, Colossians 1:16, states:

Colossians 1:16 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus as Lord and Creator, made all things perfect as Genesis 1:31 plainly states:

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good….

Alcohol is developed by fermentation, a product of decay and death. It therefore could not have been created by our Lord, whose actions were totally consistent with the nature of God and Holy Scripture. The wine He created could only be the fruit of the vine which was not rotten and dead as is the case with fermented wine, but wholesome and fresh. Just like all the other fruits He produces on the trees yearly through His providence, which reflects His love for man.

It is sincerely hoped that after consideration of the facts that we have examined, that we grasp the seriousness of any allegations which may suggest that Jesus drank or made intoxicating or alcoholic wine.

It is also hoped that any doubts that the reader may have had in this area has been answered, as we have thoroughly looked at this subject from a Scriptural perspective.

Irrespective of any difficulties which may remain, there are still no excuses which can be drawn from Jesus’ first miracle to justify the use of alcoholic drinks. However, there are always those who do not want to understand the clear teachings of the Bible on this subject, and will not accept any truth which commands total abstinence from strong drinks, irrespective of how clear and Biblical it may be. We will therefore conclude this section with a wise quote from Albert Barnes’ Bible Commentary, which states:

No man shall adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine, unless he can prove that the wine made in the ‘water-pots’ of Cana was just like the wine he proposes to drink. The Saviour’s example may be always pleaded – JUST AS IT WAS – but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it.

taken from Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence by Leighton G. Campbell pp. 160 - 166

 

[Linda64]

Intoxicating drink is deceptive in its very nature. It reminds me of the fable of the serpent in a circle of fire. A man was passing by, and the snake said to him, "Help me out of my difficulty." "If I do, you'll bite me." "Oh, no, I won't." "I'm afraid to trust you." "Help me out of the fire, or it will consume me, and I promise on my word of honor I won't bite you." The man took the snake out of the fire, and threw it on the ground. Instantly the serpent said, "Now I'll bite you." "But didn't you promise me you wouldn't?" "Yes, but don't you know it's my nature to bite, and I cannot help it." So it is with the drink. It is its nature to bite; it is its nature to deceive.

The Dangers of Moderate Drinking
By John B. Gough

http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/teach/drinkdanger.html

 

[LarryN]

Linda64 quotes: "Intoxicating drink is deceptive in its very nature......So it is with the drink. It is its nature to bite; it is its nature to deceive."


Huh?: "Intoxicating drink" is inanimate. It cannot have a "very nature", anymore than can, say, a rock or a doorknob. It doesn't have consciousness; therefore it cannot have in and of itself a "nature" to do anything. It makes just as much sense to say "that table is just evil. It's nature is to want to trip me when I walk by it."

By assigning motive & nature to inanimate objects, sinful man has long tried to deflect his own personal responsibilty. People can & do abuse "intoxicating drink", but to say that the drink itself plays any part in such behaviour is ridiculous.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Intoxicating drink is not inanimate. get a drop of beer or wine and put it under a microscope. You will see movement in that little drop.

Also, the fact that it destroys brain cells, livers, kidneys, and other organs proves that alcohol is not inanimate as you say.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Linda64 quotes: "Intoxicating drink is deceptive in its very nature......So it is with the drink. It is its nature to bite; it is its nature to deceive."


Huh?: "Intoxicating drink" is inanimate. It cannot have a "very nature", anymore than can, say, a rock or a doorknob. It doesn't have consciousness; therefore it cannot have in and of itself a "nature" to do anything. It makes just as much sense to say "that table is just evil. It's nature is to want to trip me when I walk by it."

By assigning motive & nature to inanimate objects, sinful man has long tried to deflect his own personal responsibilty. People can & do abuse "intoxicating drink", but to say that the drink itself plays any part in such behaviour is ridiculous.

Then you are calling God's Word ridiculous. God's Word says that 'Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging. Whosoever is deceived thereby (by what? the fermented drink) is not wise.

Jesus said 'Sanctify them through Thy Word, Thy Word is Truth'.

God's Word is truth. If it says wine and strong drink deceive, then wine and strong drink decieve. If it says it bites and stings, it bites and stings.

No, alcoholic beverages are not inanimate... not by a long shot.

 

[LarryN]

Quote: "Intoxicating drink is not inanimate. get a drop of beer or wine and put it under a microscope. You will see movement in that little drop."


Definition: http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/INANIMATE

So are you claiming that wine is alive? What movement are you talking about? Are you referring to the chemical process of fermentation? If you are, then many of the foods we eat are living things according to you. So is RUST, for that matter!

To have an inherent "nature" to do something or to act in a certain, instinctual way there must be consciousness; there must be life. Humans have an inherent "nature" (e.g. a sinful nature). Animals have particular individual natures (e.g. the example given of the snake in the original quotation). Once again, inanimate things (such as rocks, trees, foods, beverages, etc.) cannot have an inherent "nature".

To believe they can is the old pagan heresy of Animism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

 

[LarryN]

"Then you are calling God's Word ridiculous."

No, not by a longshot. Just your skewed interpretation of the Holy Spirit's intention in this verse.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

quite the contrary. I have used scripture to interpret scripture. I have given verses to show wine that is fermented in the Christian walk. It is those who advocate the drinking of alcohol who are skewing the scripture.

Thou art inexcusable, O man.

 

[LarryN]

"It is those who advocate the drinking of alcohol who are skewing the scripture."


And have I stated one way or another what my belief is concerning the consumption of alcohol? You assume that I am in favor of it, simply because I reject Animism.

Man is sinful because he 100% chooses to be; not because any inanimate object used in that sin bears any degree of joint responsibility.

Next you'll be telling me that we should be putting guns in prison, because surely the person who kills someone with one can't be solely responsible. ("It was in the gun's nature...")

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Again, according to the Word of God, fermented beverage is not inanimate. I have never seen an inanimate object bite. I have never seen an inanimate destroy a person's health.

 

[LarryN]

"I have never seen an inanimate object bite."


And apparently you've never seen the Bible use poetic or figurative language before either. Try reading Psalms- you'll find many examples.

Tell me how (literally) you would see wine "bite". I don't believe it has a mouth to do so with. In Revelation, Jesus is referred to as a "door". I personally don't take that to mean that He's a flat, rectangular piece of wood.