Wine & Alcohol part 37

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It's been posted before. You ignore it or pretend that it means something other than what it says. That's on your head.

Scripure has been given to show the Christian is not to partake of alcohol. You ignore it or pretend that it means something other than what it says. That's on your head.

 

[whatever]

If it has been posted here before, you should not have any problem finding it and reposting it. I have looked and cannot find it.

John 2:1-10 - verse 10 makes no sense if it's talking about Welch's.

Luke 7:33-34 - seems foolish to think that a tee-totaler would have a reputation as a drunkard, doesn't it? Whatever it was that John didn't drink, Jesus did drink. Did John abstain from grape juice? For what purpose?

Now are you sure that you've never seen these passages before? I think we both know better.

 

[PeterM]

The Word is given for reproof, for doctrine, for correction, for instruction in righteousness... and yet it is not our job to tell others what the Bible says about their sin?

Wow! People wanting to heap up to themselves teachers, having itching ears and preachers who will not preach the truth of God's Word! We are living in the last days indeed.

Finish the verse... All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

The proclamation of God's Word to expose the lost of their condition before God is both a regular and necessary practice at my church. I do not use that awesome privilege to preach against behaviors and practices that are not clearly and specificly addressed in the text (for that is expositiry preaching). I do however speak often and with passion to all people to bow down before the living God, surrendor their lives and rights, and live dangerously for the cause of the kingdom. Drunkenness is a state that cannot be apart of that life, therefore that is what I live and espouse.

Still in His steps,

 

[Diggin in da Word]

John 2:1-10 - verse 10 makes no sense if it's talking about Welch's.

Luke 7:33-34 - seems foolish to think that a tee-totaler would have a reputation as a drunkard, doesn't it? Whatever it was that John didn't drink, Jesus did drink. Did John abstain from grape juice? For what purpose?

Now are you sure that you've never seen these passages before? I think we both know better.

John 2:1 - 1o. does not say the wine Christ produced at the wedding feast was alcoholic. Try again.

Luke 7:33-34 They were falsely accusing Jesus. Jesus explained He was not drinking alcoholic wine when He said 'Wisdom is justified of her children.' He was saying, You accuse me of drinking alcohol, but those who truly are mine know the truth. Try again.

 

[whatever]

So how does John 2:10 make sense? And why did John abstain from grape juice?

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." - Colossians 2:16

So why do you want to judge others in questions of drink?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

1O REASONS WHY THE WINE JESUS MADE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALCOHOLIC

1. The vast quantity created (between 120 and 180 gallons).

This amount of intoxicating wine would have turned the wedding feast into a drunken brawl. Scholars who try to overcome this by suggesting that not all the water was turned into wine, but only that which was drawn off, only complicate things. For did not Christ know all things? He would know exactly how many people would drink one cup. Why then did He not have the attendants fill only one pot? Or even two pots, etc.? No, the miracle was divine wisdom and providence in action. Christ's abundant wisdom and providence made it obvious that such an amount could not have been intoxicating, thereby protecting His flawless reputation.


2. Christ's sinlessness and moral perfection.

Jesus Himself said in John 8:46:
Which of you convinceth me of sin?

In other words, no one was able to convict or find Him guilty of the slightest sin. Thus He declares His sinless and moral perfection. Those scholars, who talk about Christ's impeccability (perfection) and almost in the same breath declare that He was a drinker and an advocate of alcoholic wine, are totally in error. Concerning Christ's character, Hendrickson states:

Today's radical theologian is inconsistant when on
the one hand he loudly proclaims the moral
perfection of Jesus; yet on the other hand rejects
His majestic claims! If Jesus is sinless, His claims
should be accepted. Any other course is positively
wicked.

Although this statement refers to rejecting Jesus as God, declaring that He was a drinker and that He made intoxicating wine is not far from this dangerous stance.
Even Jesus' enemies realized that drinking was sin and call Him a winebibber (wine drinker, Matt. 11:19; Luke 7:34) and what is even more amazing, people who profess to be Christians accuse Him of the same thing!
Many sinners, some of whom have been misinformed by Christians on this issue, also realize that drinking is sin and object to Jesus' claims on those grounds. R.A. Torrey explains this point:

A stock objection against the Bible, and not only
against the Bible but against Jesus Christ Himself, is
is found in the story of Jesus turning the water into
wine at the marriage festival at Cana of Galilee as
recorded in John 2:1-11.

Unfortunately, this kind of view only comes from those who do not really understand who Jesus is. An even sadder point is that many Christians do more to hinder unbelievers from coming to Christ by misrepresenting His character when it comes to the drink issue.

We will now look at some New Testament Scripture passages, which reaffirm Jesus' sinlessness and perfection, in the light of which makes it inconceivable that our Lord could have drank or created alcoholic beverages. These read:

1 John 3:5 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1 Peter 2:22 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might
be made the righteousness of God in him.
Hebrews 7:26 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled,
separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

In the light of these Biblical facts, it is plain that those who suggest that Jesus drank or created alcoholic wine have a very dim conception of His holiness indeed.

• Man’s Sinfulness

John 4:24, 25 states:
John 4:24-25 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in
truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is
called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Jesus also stated:
John 3:19 …men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

These passages alone tell us that Jesus would not have bowed to the sinful desires of men by creating intoxicating wine. As the Scripture states, Jesus knew what was in man, that is, He knew their sinful hearts and evil desires. They indeed loved darkness rather than light.
Those commentators of the Bible therefore, who state such arguments such as, “temperance” is one of the qualities mentioned under the fruit of the Spirit. Or that the guests at the wedding feast, which Christ attended at Cana of Galilee, were a select and holy band of people, who would therefore not drink too much, is not a valid reason for explaining away why Christ would not have created intoxicating wine. Since all were sinners.
Such an act of making alcoholic wine would not have produced faith in Him as the glorious Son of God. Instead it would have merely identified Him as another sinful man with the usual sinful desires for finding pleasure in evil things.

• Temptation

In Matthew 6:13, Jesus states:

Matthew 6:13 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…

Christ would not therefore have tempted men to become drunkards, which would mean exclusion from the kingdom of God in which He Himself proclaimed.

• Christ would have approved of social drinking.

Pubs, bars, etc., would therefore be the accepted thing amongst Christians if the wine Christ made was alcoholic as some insist. Christ could also be held responsible to a large extent for the problem of alcoholism today, as the Encyclopedia Britannica points out:

First in the realm of health, the most serious and detrimental effect is alcoholism. Although
drinking itself is hardly ever regarded as the sufficient cause of alcoholism, this disease could
not arise without the use of alcohol.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

continued

• It was and is in the nature of Christ to do good.

The Apostle Peter stated in Acts 10:38:

Acts 10:38 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:
who went about doing good…
Albert Barnes explains this principle in the light of Jesus’ first miracle:
Jesus delighted to do good. In the very beginning of His ministry He worked a miracle to show His benevolence. This was the appropriate commencement of a life in which He was to go about doing good. He seized every opportunity of doing it; and at a marriage feast, as well as among the sick and poor, He showed the character of which He always sustained – that of a benefactor of mankind. An argument cannot be drawn from this instance in favor of intemperate drinking. There is no evidence that any who were present on that occasion drank too freely. Nor can an argument be drawn from this case in favour even of drinking wine, such as we have. The common wine of Judea was the pure juice of the grape, without any mixture of alcohol, and was harmless. It was the common drink of the people, and it did not tend to produce intoxication.

Again, after consideration of these facts, it is inconceivable from a Biblical perspective, to suggest that our Lord would have created an alcoholic substance which is not good but is harmful to the body. Also, Jesus the Great Physician and Creator of our bodies, who knows all things, designed our bodies to reject alcohol (in any quantity) because of its destructive potential. He therefore would not have bestowed upon men something which He is in infinite knowledge, purposely designed our complex bodies to reject. The Encyclopedia Britannica bears this out:

The body begins to dispose of alcohol immediately after it is absorbed.

This scientific fact is borne out by the Spirit inspired writer of 1 Samuel 25:37 when referring to Nabal’s complete recovery from drunkenness:

1 Samuel 25:37 37 But it came to pass in the morning, when the wine was gone out of Nabal, and his wife had told him these things, that his heart died within him, and he became as a stone.

Again, after consideration of the facts, can we accuse our Lord and Creator of ignorance?

• Christ Himself warned against drunkenness and of drinking, and drinking with drunkards.

Matthew 24:45-51 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 12:45-46 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

• Christ Himself denied that He was a wine drinker (winebibber).

When accused of this vice, Jesus stated, …But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matthew 11:18,19; Luke 7:33,34). A paraphrase of this statement would read:


I am not a glutton neither am I a wine drinker, or a lover of evil deeds of tax collectors and sinners, and this fact will be justly declared by those who are my true children.

Today, those who are His true children will follow His example …that we might be partakers of His Holiness. (Hebrews 12:10b).

• The Old Testament condemned drinking as well as drunkenness. (Proverbs 20:1; 23:31-35)

Since Christ was well versed in the Old Testament and did not contradict its teachings, the truth of His abstinence from alcoholic wine is firmly established.

• He would have violated His own laws of Creation.

Speaking of Christ, Colossians 1:16, states:

Colossians 1:16 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus as Lord and Creator, made all things perfect as Genesis 1:31 plainly states:

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good….

Alcohol is developed by fermentation, a product of decay and death. It therefore could not have been created by our Lord, whose actions were totally consistent with the nature of God and Holy Scripture. The wine He created could only be the fruit of the vine which was not rotten and dead as is the case with fermented wine, but wholesome and fresh. Just like all the other fruits He produces on the trees yearly through His providence, which reflects His love for man.

It is sincerely hoped that after consideration of the facts that we have examined, that we grasp the seriousness of any allegations which may suggest that Jesus drank or made intoxicating or alcoholic wine.

It is also hoped that any doubts that the reader may have had in this area has been answered, as we have thoroughly looked at this subject from a Scriptural perspective.

Irrespective of any difficulties which may remain, there are still no excuses which can be drawn from Jesus’ first miracle to justify the use of alcoholic drinks. However, there are always those who do not want to understand the clear teachings of the Bible on this subject, and will not accept any truth which commands total abstinence from strong drinks, irrespective of how clear and Biblical it may be. We will therefore conclude this section with a wise quote from Albert Barnes’ Bible Commentary, which states:

No man shall adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine, unless he can prove that the wine made in the ‘water-pots’ of Cana was just like the wine he proposes to drink. The Saviour’s example may be always pleaded – JUST AS IT WAS – but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it.

I previously posted this at Post 109 and 110, but many failed to read it or just chose to ignore its wisdom. Taken from Leighton G. Campbell's book 'Wine in the Bible and the Case for Total Abstinence' pp. 160 - 166

I forgot this time to post the name of book and it's author, but I did post it correctly on the previous page. So, I am not plagiurizing as some might accuse me.

 

[whatever]

So how does John 2:10 make sense? And why did John abstain from grape juice?

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." - Colossians 2:16

So why do you want to judge others in questions of drink?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

So how does John 2:10 make sense? And why did John abstain from grape juice?

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." - Colossians 2:16

So why do you want to judge others in questions of drink?

Read the last two posts I put up and you will see that the best wine was not, could not have been alcoholic.

 

[PeterM]

• It was and is in the nature of Christ to do good.

The Apostle Peter stated in Acts 10:38:

Acts 10:38 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:
who went about doing good…
Albert Barnes explains this principle in the light of Jesus’ first miracle:
Jesus delighted to do good. In the very beginning of His ministry He worked a miracle to show His benevolence. This was the appropriate commencement of a life in which He was to go about doing good. He seized every opportunity of doing it; and at a marriage feast, as well as among the sick and poor, He showed the character of which He always sustained – that of a benefactor of mankind. An argument cannot be drawn from this instance in favor of intemperate drinking. There is no evidence that any who were present on that occasion drank too freely. Nor can an argument be drawn from this case in favour even of drinking wine, such as we have. The common wine of Judea was the pure juice of the grape, without any mixture of alcohol, and was harmless. It was the common drink of the people, and it did not tend to produce intoxication.

Again, after consideration of these facts, it is inconceivable from a Biblical perspective, to suggest that our Lord would have created an alcoholic substance which is not good but is harmful to the body. Also, Jesus the Great Physician and Creator of our bodies, who knows all things, designed our bodies to reject alcohol (in any quantity) because of its destructive potential. He therefore would not have bestowed upon men something which He is in infinite knowledge, purposely designed our complex bodies to reject. The Encyclopedia Britannica bears this out:

The body begins to dispose of alcohol immediately after it is absorbed.

This scientific fact is borne out by the Spirit inspired writer of 1 Samuel 25:37 when referring to Nabal’s complete recovery from drunkenness:

1 Samuel 25:37 37 But it came to pass in the morning, when the wine was gone out of Nabal, and his wife had told him these things, that his heart died within him, and he became as a stone.

Again, after consideration of the facts, can we accuse our Lord and Creator of ignorance?

• Christ Himself warned against drunkenness and of drinking, and drinking with drunkards.

Matthew 24:45-51 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 12:45-46 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

• Christ Himself denied that He was a wine drinker (winebibber).

When accused of this vice, Jesus stated, …But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matthew 11:18,19; Luke 7:33,34). A paraphrase of this statement would read:


I am not a glutton neither am I a wine drinker, or a lover of evil deeds of tax collectors and sinners, and this fact will be justly declared by those who are my true children.

Today, those who are His true children will follow His example …that we might be partakers of His Holiness. (Hebrews 12:10b).

• The Old Testament condemned drinking as well as drunkenness. (Proverbs 20:1; 23:31-35)

Since Christ was well versed in the Old Testament and did not contradict its teachings, the truth of His abstinence from alcoholic wine is firmly established.

• He would have violated His own laws of Creation.

Speaking of Christ, Colossians 1:16, states:

Colossians 1:16 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus as Lord and Creator, made all things perfect as Genesis 1:31 plainly states:

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good….

Alcohol is developed by fermentation, a product of decay and death. It therefore could not have been created by our Lord, whose actions were totally consistent with the nature of God and Holy Scripture. The wine He created could only be the fruit of the vine which was not rotten and dead as is the case with fermented wine, but wholesome and fresh. Just like all the other fruits He produces on the trees yearly through His providence, which reflects His love for man.

It is sincerely hoped that after consideration of the facts that we have examined, that we grasp the seriousness of any allegations which may suggest that Jesus drank or made intoxicating or alcoholic wine.

It is also hoped that any doubts that the reader may have had in this area has been answered, as we have thoroughly looked at this subject from a Scriptural perspective.

Irrespective of any difficulties which may remain, there are still no excuses which can be drawn from Jesus’ first miracle to justify the use of alcoholic drinks. However, there are always those who do not want to understand the clear teachings of the Bible on this subject, and will not accept any truth which commands total abstinence from strong drinks, irrespective of how clear and Biblical it may be. We will therefore conclude this section with a wise quote from Albert Barnes’ Bible Commentary, which states:

No man shall adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine, unless he can prove that the wine made in the ‘water-pots’ of Cana was just like the wine he proposes to drink. The Saviour’s example may be always pleaded – JUST AS IT WAS – but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it.

The mental leaps in this post tired me out...

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

not plageurizing at all. I gave credit to the author
Leighton G. Campbell. Wine in the Bible and the Case for Total Abstinence. pp. 160 - 166

 

[whatever]

Read the last two posts I put up and you will see that the best wine was not, could not have been alcoholic.

Oh, I just thought this was the part of the thread where we were supposed to start repeating ourselves. Sorry.

That article is just as logically flawed and thoroughly unconvincing as it was the first time you posted it. Do you know what circular reasoning is?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Oh, I just thought this was the part of the thread where we were supposed to start repeating ourselves. Sorry.

That article is just as logically flawed and thoroughly unconvincing as it was the first time you posted it. Do you know what circular reasoning is?

I should have known you would reject it. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[PeterM]

I should have known you would reject it. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God.

Dude, you are saying that if we don't agree with you we are lost and without salvation when you make such comments.

In no way do I believe this of you, but as a result of your attitude and lack of new material, I am done.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Dude, you are saying that if we don't agree with you we are lost and without salvation when you make such comments.

In no way do I believe this of you, but as a result of your attitude and lack of new material, I am done.

Not at all, It matters not whether you agree with me or not. But, if you don't agree with the Word of God, you're lost.

In the Words of the Apostle Paul, '1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.'

As far as 'new material', I don't need new material if it is going to tell me Jesus drank alcoholic beverages and that we should too.

Jeremiah 6:16 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

 

[webdog]

I should have known you would reject it. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God.

...then I pray that you will someday stop walking by the "natural man" and walk by the Spirit instead.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

...then I pray that you will someday stop walking by the "natural man" and walk by the Spirit instead.

I have been walking in sweet communion with the Lord for many years and am fed daily by the Word of God. His Spirit was given to me to point me to the truth, to testify of Christ. It is not a false spirit that I listen to.

The false spirit will testify of a alcohol drinking christ. My Christ is sinless, He is the Son of the Living God.

 

[ituttut]

the body adapts to the alcohol. interesting. The flesh adapts to sin.

Any other comments about what I said?

My friend you and I are probably in the same boat. I, a sinner, have right of passage through His faith. We were born in sin, and into sin, and we are sinners still. Please accept what you are, even if you don't pertake of all of His blessings to us.

You do not have to accept all he offers. Do you feel you are a better person than others in Christ, for perhaps you are of the Nazarite persuasion of taking oaths, or refraining from what is offered to other Christians? I don't recall John the Baptist ever questioning why Jesus or the Apostles ate and drank what they pleased. We know John was set aside by God. We know some set themselves aside for God. There are a good number that like to "toot their horn" when there is no crossing within sight.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I do accept all His blessings for me. He has blessed me with all Spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. He however, does not bless people with alcoholic beverages. They are not of God no matter how a person will twist Scripture and take Scripture out of context.

 

[ituttut]

I do accept all His blessings for me. He has blessed me with all Spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. He however, does not bless people with alcoholic beverages. They are not of God no matter how a person will twist Scripture and take Scripture out of context.

Who is it that gives us the corn, and wine of the fruit of the vine? Please prove your point. You do not endeavor to try and refute what I say in my posts. The scripture I give and the thought cannot be denied. Please show me, and some others you say twist His Word, or take out of context, that His Word is in error.

Here's you chance to show your stuff, and grind His Word and have it come out by what man has taught you. " And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:" Genesis 14:18-19.

I say it says "the king" brought forth bread and wine (not grape juice). This passage says he was the priest of the most high God. And "the king" blessed him, saying blessed be Abram of the most height God, possessor of both heaven and earth.

Where is the twisting, or lifted out of its setting?

Isn't this you're signature - Quote "If the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest it result in nonsense", Unquote. Do I make sense in these two verses, or do I spout nonsense" If it is "nonsense", then please help me to understand the Word of God; not just tell me I twist and misapply without trying to help me out.