Wine vs. Grapejuice @ Communion

[Jerome]

From Martin Luther to the Pilgrims fermentation became the quick and easy way to have a potable beverage. While it maybe said that fermentation saved western Europe it was soon found that the water of the new world was potable.

When did they figure out how to boil water?

 

[JerryL]

No one is questioning that the Dark Ages were dark. We are looking for proof that wicked men brought alcoholic wine to the Lord's Table to satisfy their vice and because of their wickedness kept using it for hundreds of years.

I am wonder if men like the Wesleys, Bunyan, Edwards, Carey, and Taylor indulged in such wickedness.

Don't forget Spurgeon, his salary included 250 gallons of wine a year.

 

[gb93433]

If you aren't interested in debate, why did you put it in the debate thread?

No debate about it. Alcoholic wine was not drunk by the Disciples. Read Acts 2 how they were accused of being drunk from their 'gleukos... new wine.' Gleukos was unfermented.

You have poor information perpetuated by the ignorant.

Try reading some sermons before prohibition and you wil find much different information on wine.

The context of Acts 2:13 gives no indication of (gleukous) being a non alocholic beverage. In fact they were mocked and accused or drinking sweet wine (gleukous). If sweet wine were non-alcoholic then why were they accused of drinking something that would get them drunk?

Anyone who has raises grapes knows the nonsense that has been perpetuated upon Christians to support a pet theology. My parents were grape farmers and I have never heard such nonsense and the lies pushed on Christians from anywhere else. If grapes are left out for very many hours they begin to rot. They must be dried or made into wine. Rotting liquid grape juice will develop mold on top of the liquid.

The word for sweet wine (gleukous) is used in Job 32:19 and Acts 2:13.

Job 32:19, "Behold, my belly is like unvented wine, Like new wineskins it is about to burst. "

New wine in the fermentation process produces pressure on a wineskin. If wine were not wine then there would be no need for new wineskins. In that day in that weather grapes will either ferment or rot. The fermentation process produces alcohol.

Acts 2:12-15, "And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?" But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine." But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;"

How could they be mocked and thought to be drunk as if they had drunk (gleukous) and sweet wine was known to be non-alcoholic?

 

[JerryL]

The same ones who have deceived many into believing the lie that alcohol is a gift from God.

Why is yeast a natural product on grapes and not on other fruits? Did not God put it there?

 

[JerryL]

You have poor information perpetuated by the ignorant.

Try reading some sermons before prohibition and you wil find much different information on wine.

The context of Acts 2:13 gives no indication of (gleukous) being a non alocholic beverage. In fact they were mocked and accused or drinking sweet wine (gleukous). If sweet wine were non-alcoholic then why were they accused of drinking something that would get them drunk?

Anyone who has raises grapes knows the nonsense that has been perpetuated upon Christians to support a pet theology. My parents were grape farmers and I have never heard such nonsense and the lies pushed on Christians from anywhere else. If grapes are left out for very many hours they begin to rot. They must be dried or made into wine. Rotting liquid grape juice will develop mold on top of the liquid.

The word for sweet wine (gleukous) is used in Job 32:19 and Acts 2:13.

Job 32:19, "Behold, my belly is like unvented wine, Like new wineskins it is about to burst. "

New wine in the fermentation process produces pressure on a wineskin. If wine were not wine then there would be no need for new wineskins. In that day in that weather grapes will either ferment or rot. The fermentation process produces alcohol.

Acts 2:12-15, "And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?" But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine." But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;"

How could they be mocked and thought to be drunk as if they had drunk (gleukous) and sweet wine was known to be non-alcoholic?

It's only [removed heated rhetoric] people pushing and ignorant doctrine to support their thinking. You have to twist Scripture like pretzel to come up with their nonsense. Like Roger, I'm going to bow out now. I refuse to talk to [removed heated rhetoric] people that push their agenda by twisting Scripture.

[Moderator Warning: Remember the BB Posting Rules require you to show grace to your fellow posters. Debate the issues and do not attack the person holding the opposing view.]

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It's only [removal of heated rhetoric] people pushing and ignorant doctrine to support their thinking. You have to twist Scripture like pretzel to come up with their nonsense. Like Roger, I'm going to bow out now. I refuse to talk to [removal of heated rhetoric] people that push their agenda by twisting Scripture.

It is not I who is ignorant of Scripture concerning alcohol. God says "Look thou not..." That is exactly what He means. We are to have nothing to do with it.

 

[JerryL]

It is not I who is ignorant of Scripture concerning alcohol. God says "Look thou not..." That is exactly what He means. We are to have nothing to do with it.

Before I go, did God put the yeast on grapes and not on other fruits? If he didn't want the grapes to ferment to make wine, why is it there?

 

[Bible-boy]

Let's get back on the topic of the OP folks. What are the whens and whys regarding the use of either grape juice or wine in communion?

 

[JerryL]

Let's get back on the topic of the OP folks. What are the whens and whys regarding the use of either grape juice or wine in communion?

You just let him off the hook to answer a question that shows his stance is twisting Scripture.

 

[givengrace]

If this has been mentioned Please excuse me I didn't read all the Posts.

But from what I understand when in the Bible it mentions WINE it is speaking of what we see now as JUICE (un fermented) Fermented was called "Strong Drink"

 

[Palatka51]

Here is the article.
Why Did We Change the
Grape Juice to Wine
in the Communion Cup?
A Biblical View of Wine and the Cultural Influences that
Shaped the Church to Change Its Practice of Communion

Isn't this what we have been debating?

 

[JerryL]

Isn't this what we have been debating?

Yes, but the title is about that particular Church. You have to read the first paragraph to get his meaning and you know it.

"As the title of this article implies, we at Heritage Presbyterian Church have made a
change in an element of communion. Perhaps a better question for the broader
Evangelical Church would be, “Why did we ever change the wine in communion to
grape juice to begin with?”


When one of you answer my question in post #187 (which by the way IS on topic) we can see you two twist Scripture to make your view plausible.

Before I go, did God put the yeast on grapes and not on other fruits? If he didn't want the grapes to ferment to make wine, why is it there?

 

[JerryL]

I thought you might dodge that question.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Do a search, JerryL. It was not just grapes that wine was made out of. They used many kinds of fruits to produce wine.

If the question had to do with that particular church, the question was asked foolishly. Not everyone goes to that church and would not have the knowledge of why changes were made within its walls.

But the original Lord's Supper, and the one Paul taught to remember as oft as ye do, contained no alcoholic beverages... as has been shown time and again through Scripture.

 

[JerryL]

Do a search, JerryL. It was not just grapes that wine was made out of. They used many kinds of fruits to produce wine.

If the question had to do with that particular church, the question was asked foolishly. Not everyone goes to that church and would not have the knowledge of why changes were made within its walls.

But the original Lord's Supper, and the one Paul taught to remember as oft as ye do, contained no alcoholic beverages... as has been shown time and again through Scripture.

Did God put the yeast on grapes and not on ALL fruit? Your still dodging.

PS, the author of that Church made a rhetorical question in his heading. If you read the first paragraph he explains it pretty well.

 

[JerryL]

Answering that question makes your ideas fall on their face, eh? :laugh:

 

[Linda64]

Before I go, did God put the yeast on grapes and not on other fruits? If he didn't want the grapes to ferment to make wine, why is it there?

Along that line of questioning: why does God allow sin in the world?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Did God put the yeast on grapes and not on ALL fruit? Your still dodging.

PS, the author of that Church made a rhetorical question in his heading. If you read the first paragraph he explains it pretty well.

It certainly wasn't so man could drink the fermented juice. He warns against the drinking of it in Proverbs 23... which so many seem to reject.

'Don't even consider the alcoholic beverage' is the literal interpretation.

 

[JerryL]

It certainly wasn't so man could drink the fermented juice. He warns against the drinking of it in Proverbs 23... which so many seem to reject.

'Don't even consider the alcoholic beverage' is the literal interpretation.

Why did he put it there then? It doesn't have to be there to make grapejuice.

 

[JerryL]

Along that line of questioning: why does God allow sin in the world?

Hold on Linda, SFIC is gonna answer your question if you give him time. Don't confuse him, I'm having a hard time keeping him on this question. It is on topic, I promise.