Wine vs. Grapejuice @ Communion

[Dale-c]

I do not see a cluster of grapes in that dream or a Budweiser.

The point is that your logic does not hold up.
In the OT, it was a sin to eat pork.
It is no longer the case.

In the OT, the priests were to, at times, abstain completely.
We do not do things as they did in the OT.
To use a command that the priests were to do or not do in the tabernacle and apply that today is a big mistake.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I do not see a cluster of grapes in that dream or a Budweiser. It is about meats. Did not Jesus talk about the avoidance of yeast or leaven?

You mean this verse?

Matthew 13v33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

Since the topic of the thread is the history of alcoholic vs non-alcoholic wine, do you knew when the idea of "leavened wine" became an issue in the Lord's Table.

 

[Palatka51]

You mean this verse?

Matthew 13v33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

Since the topic of the thread is the history of alcoholic vs non-alcoholic wine, do you knew when the idea of "leavened wine" became an issue in the Lord's Table.

I believe that in western culture, we need to look no further than the great plague to find an answer to that question. From Martin Luther to the Pilgrims fermentation became the quick and easy way to have a potable beverage. While it maybe said that fermentation saved western Europe it was soon found that the water of the new world was potable.

One must realize that the plague held back human development immensely. Even to the point of having lost many of the ancient ways of doing things, even that of food preservation methods such as pasteurization. It is not out of the realm of impossibility.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

From Martin Luther to the Pilgrims fermentation became the quick and easy way to have a potable beverage. While it maybe said that fermentation saved western Europe it was soon found that the water of the new world was potable.

Possibly, but the charge been laid that wicked men did it to bring thier vice into the church. I will look forward to another poster's response to that.

 

[Palatka51]

The point is that your logic does not hold up.
In the OT, it was a sin to eat pork.
It is no longer the case.

In the OT, the priests were to, at times, abstain completely.
We do not do things as they did in the OT.
To use a command that the priests were to do or not do in the tabernacle and apply that today is a big mistake.

Matthew 5:17-20
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does one fulfill the law by taking his neighbor's wife?
No, it is fulfilled by not lusting and not taking.

How is it then that Jesus fulfills the law by drinking alcohol?
He doesn't fulfill it by drinking, He fulfills it by not drinking it.

Jesus has said that He is come to fulfill. Therefore He did by not sinning.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I don't moderate this thread - but could we keep to the topic please - which is the history of alcoholic v non-alcoholic wine in the Lord's Table, especially the recent change to grape juice.

 

[Palatka51]

The point is that your logic does not hold up.
In the OT, it was a sin to eat pork.
It is no longer the case.

In the OT, the priests were to, at times, abstain completely.
We do not do things as they did in the OT.
To use a command that the priests were to do or not do in the tabernacle and apply that today is a big mistake.

No Dale, your logic does not hold up. It was an allegory to get Peter to go to the Gentile, Cornelius. That is why Peter was shown the various types of animals considered unclean. It has nothing to do with the use of wine.

 

[Palatka51]

I don't moderate this thread - but could we keep to the topic please - which is the history of alcoholic v non-alcoholic wine in the Lord's Table, especially the recent change to grape juice.

The post I've given have everything to with the history of alcoholic v non-alcoholic wine in the Lord's Table. Sense Jesus did not serve alcohol, it then had to be instituted by man and not our Lord. I gave the reasons why it was instituted by man. That time period was the Dark ages of the plague. However it may also be stated that RCism brought it into the Lord's table. Which would lend credence to the post that you refer to here.

Possibly, but the charge been laid that wicked men did it to bring thier vice into the church. I will look forward to another poster's response to that.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The post I've given have everything to with the history of alcoholic v non-alcoholic wine in the Lord's Table. Sense Jesus did not serve alcohol, it then had to be instituted by man and not our Lord. I gave the reasons why it was instituted by man. That time period was the Dark ages of the plague. However it may also be stated that RCism brought it into the Lord's table. Which would lend credence to the post that you refer to here.

So have godly, Bible based churches always used non-alcoholic wine through all of history?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I gave the reasons why it was instituted by man. That time period was the Dark ages of the plague.

Interesting tidbit - do you have a source so that I could research this further?

 

[Palatka51]

So have godly, Bible based churches always used non-alcoholic wine through all of history?

Isn't that what my previous posts indicate? However it is possible that through error and ignorance many have served alcohol to their own hurt.

 

[Dale-c]

I have never seen any documentation that any church ever used non alcoholic wine for communion before Dr Welch invented grape juice.
If there is such documentation available I would like to see it as well.

 

[Dale-c]

Isn't that what my previous posts indicate? However it is possible that through error and ignorance many have served alcohol to their own hurt.

So do you have any evidence to substantiate this claim?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I have never seen any documentation that any church ever used non alcoholic wine for communion before Dr Welch invented grape juice.
If there is such documentation available I would like to see it as well.

I would love to see documentation of non-alcoholic wine after Christ (if I accept He did not use wine) and before Dr Welch as well.

Looks like we are getting back to the OP

 

[Palatka51]

Interesting tidbit - do you have a source so that I could research this further?

Not any one source. However it is evident that we lost much of what the ancients knew because of those "dark years." The decline of Rome as an empire contributed to it. They had sewers that carried waist out of the city and running water for drinking and bathing was a ritual that kept plagues away.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Not any one source. However it is evident that we lost much of what the ancients knew because of those "dark years." The decline of Rome as an empire contributed to it. They had sewers that carried waist out of the city and running water for drinking and bathing was a ritual that kept plagues away.

No one is questioning that the Dark Ages were dark. We are looking for proof that wicked men brought alcoholic wine to the Lord's Table to satisfy their vice and because of their wickedness kept using it for hundreds of years.

I am wonder if men like the Wesleys, Bunyan, Edwards, Carey, and Taylor indulged in such wickedness.

 

[Palatka51]

I would love to see documentation of non-alcoholic wine after Christ (if I accept He did not use wine) and before Dr Welch as well.

Looks like we are getting back to the OP

Therein is the crux of the matter then. Documentation to that effect is nigh impossible. Are we to use that as our criteria to justify error? Regardless of how long it was practiced until Welch's grape juice was massed produced?
Shouldn't scripture then be the documentation desired for correction?

 

[Palatka51]

No one is questioning that the Dark Ages were dark. We are looking for proof that wicked men brought alcoholic wine to the Lord's Table to satisfy their vice and because of their wickedness kept using it for hundreds of years.

I am wonder if men like the Wesleys, Bunyan, Edwards, Carey, and Taylor indulged in such wickedness.

If in ignorance by cultural influences then the answer is, Yes.

 

[webdog]

Therein is the crux of the matter then. Documentation to that effect is nigh impossible. Are we to use that as our criteria to justify error? Regardless of how long it was practiced until Welch's grape juice was massed produced?
Shouldn't scripture then be the documentation desired for correction?

Surely there has to be some documentation of godly men who were bringing this vile devil juice into the Lord's house! I would think that the "true" godly men of the time who would never partake of such treachery would document the above mentioned pastors as being "worldly" at some point!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Roger, I recommend you read the book "The Temperance Bible-Commentary" by Frederic Lees. Beginning on page 277, Mr Lees answers the most arguments concerning wine and grape juice. He gives solid references as well.