Wise and Foolish Virgins

[standingfirminChrist]

The virgins did not trim their lamps until after they woke up. Nowhere does the scripture say the lamps were trimmed before they heard the shout that, 'The Bridegroom Cometh.'

The lamps were torches which consisted of a bowl on top of a stick. Trimming the lamps consisted of dipping a cloth in the oil and putting said cloth in the bowl and lighting it.

In a Jewish wedding feast, which always took place in the evening hours, the lamps were never lit until the bridesmaids heard the shout, 'The Bridegroom Cometh.'

The fact is the foolish did not take oil to light that cloth when it was needed, but the wise carried the oil with them to be used at such time as was needed.

 

[J. Jump]

Nor does it say the wise virgins took extra oil, yet you keep saying they did.

Yes it does. They had their lamps, which had oil in them. And then they also took oil in a separate container. That means they had oil and then took extra oil to be prepared.

 

[J. Jump]

They were lying about the lamps even being lit at all.

Again the text not only doesn't state that, but doesn't even insinuate that.

 

[gekko]

SFIC. do you have your reference material stating that information about the jewish lamps and all that?

i'd like to view it for myself...

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Yes it does. They had their lamps, which had oil in them. And then they also took oil in a separate container. That means they had oil and then took extra oil to be prepared.

Show me the scripture that says the lamps had oil in them. I have yet to see it.

 

[gekko]

Show me the scripture that says the lamps had oil in them. I have yet to see it.

J.Jump was referring to the wise virgins lamps...

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Matthew 25:3-4 says, "They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them; but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps." The foolish had no oil, so they were not prepared for Christ's return. Their attachment to Christ was merely external. They hadn't secured the most important thing of all: the oil necessary to light the torch.

Matthew 25:6 tells us of the cry that was made: "Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him." That glorious moment began the wedding and the celebration would go on for several days. In Jewish wedding tradition, the bridegroom would come to the bride's house with his groomsmen. The bride and the ten bridesmaids would join them, and the procession would begin. The bridesmaids would light their torches to light the way back to the groom's house. This moment in the wedding is analogous to the moment of Christ's second coming.

B. The Awakening
In verse 7 Jesus says, "Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps." They probably had to get the cloth at the end of the torch ready to receive the oil. Those who had oil with them poured it on the cloth and lit their torches. Those who didn't have oil now realized they were unprepared. But they didn't anticipate the bridegroom would come when it was too late to buy any oil. They were unprepared. The apostle Paul wrote, "Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). He challenged us to make sure we are saved. When the bridegroom arrived, the truth was revealed: they were unprepared. They had no oil (internal holiness) and therefore couldn't light their torches.

C. The Appeal
What did the foolish virgins do when they realized they had no oil? Matthew 25:8 says, "The foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out." According to the Greek text, the phrase translated "our lamps are gone out" could be read, "Our lamps are going out." Apparently the foolish virgins tried to light their torches using only the cloth. But without oil, the cloth could only smolder a little while before the flame went out. So they asked the wise virgins for some oil.

taken from http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg2375.htm

 

[gekko]

thats some interesting detail. thank you SFIC.

 

[J. Jump]

Show me the scripture that says the lamps had oil in them.

Show me where it says it doesn't. They did not take oil with them does not say they didn't have oil in their lamp. Again that is a direct comparison to the wise who also took oil in a separate container.

To say that both groups left out with oil-less lamps is reading into Scripture that which is not there.

Look at the very last verse of the passage: "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

He's talking to saved individuals and telling them to be ready. They need to be ready because if they are not they are going to experience the same thing the foolish virigins did, not because they were unsaved, but because they weren't ready.

There's nothing in that passage that supports your view.

Your belief that these were lost and saved is destroyed in the very next parable. The man called his slaves together. And at the end of the parable we see that some were faithful and some were unfaithful just like the virgins. Not some saved and some unsaved.

Again there is nothing in this entire passage that supports your view. Nothing.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

There was another site that I found last night which explained the Jewish Ceremonies and had greater detail, but I cannot find it. Will continue searching.

But John MacArthur certainly did some research on this. I have run across many pages that say the torch was not lit until after the cry was heard.

The Bridegroom always came as 'a thief in the night' unannounced. It would be foolish to constantly burn the oil as opposed to keeping the supply ready for the call.

 

[gekko]

The Bridegroom always came as 'a thief in the night' unannounced.

that scripture... where is that where it talks about the Lord coming as a thief in the night?

cause He only comes as a thief in the night to those who are unsaved.

 

[canadyjd]

SFIC

Well done:thumbs: I predict it will not change their minds, however, they are still shown to be incorrect and at odds with scripture once again. Perhaps one day the house of sand which this theology of dispensation is built upon will be totally washed away with God's Word.
peace to youraise:

 

[gekko]

the house built on sand does not represent saved people. its unsaved people.
---

that in response to:

Perhaps one day the house of sand

 

[J. Jump]

cause He only comes as a thief in the night to those who are unsaved.

It's actually a thief in the night to those that are unprepared, not unsaved, which is exactly what this passage is dealing with. Preparedness not salvation.

I predict it will not change their minds, however, they are still shown to be incorrect and at odds with scripture once again.

Nothing has been shown to make this a correct statement and actually the statement could be turned directly around and applied to you and those that think like you.

Perhaps one day the house of sand which this theology of dispensation is built upon will be totally washed away with God's Word.

Wonder why it hasn't washed away yet? I guess that's because it's built on the Firm Foundation of God's Scripture!

Once again just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is incorrect.

 

[canadyjd]

the house built on sand does not represent saved people. its unsaved people.
---
that in response to:

Well, I certainly cannot pronounce anyone saved or unsaved. That was not my point. My point was that dispensational theology cannot stand the scrutiny of scripture. My hope is that God's Word will finally convince those caught up in it that there are too many problems to maintain that belief.

peace to youraise:

 

[J. Jump]

Apparently the foolish virgins tried to light their torches using only the cloth. But without oil, the cloth could only smolder a little while before the flame went out. So they asked the wise virgins for some oil.

This is what the infallible inerrant John MacArthur said (at least that is the way some of his followers treat him). He said APPARENTELY. He didn't even make his statement a matter of fact, but a matter of assumption.

John MacArthur "thinks" this is what happens, but doesn't know for sure. What it boils down to is John MacArthur is reading into the text just like the others on this board, because without reading into the text his false teaching of Lordship salvation falls. And goodness knows we can't admit to people that something we have believed in for some many years is actually incorrect.

 

[J. Jump]

dispensational theology cannot stand the scrutiny of scripture.

Not only can it stand the scrutiny of Scripture, but it is the only one that can. You have shown nothing to make it false.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1 Thessalonians 5:2-6 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober

Sudden destruction does not come to the saved, but to the unsaved. He comes as a thief in the night to the unsaved. We are children of the light.

 

[gekko]

concerning the thief in the night.
---

is is thessalonians that talks about it?

it says that to us that know Christ - we know He is coming back.

but to those that dont know Christ - they dont know He's coming back.

and because they dont know He's coming back - when He does come back it will seem like He is coming like a thief in the night because they had no clue he was coming.

read that passage over again. when you find it. could you post it? cause im at school.

 

[LeBuick]

In a Jewish wedding feast, which always took place in the evening hours, the lamps were never lit until the bridesmaids heard the shout, 'The Bridegroom Cometh.'.

Didn't know this... Well this adds a lot if the tradition dictated to not light the lamp and until they received word of the bride grooms arrival.

So where does this leave us SFIC? Does this mean the foolish were not saved to begin with since they never had the holy spirit? (oil for lamp)