With thanks to SavedByMercy for defending Calvinsm

[BobRyan]

I am one of those Arminians on this board that has responded to SavedByMercy with many many Bible texts to oppose her views about how the Gospel works.

As a result it might seem that I and other Arminians are not fully appreciative of her efforts. This thread is to affirm and applaud the fact that she is standing up for Calvinism - not hedging, not playing a shell game with it. But boldly admitting to its principles.


For example --

Originally Posted by savedbymercy

The Truths of TULIP, what each of those points teach from the scripture sets forth the Gospel of God's Grace, so much so, if you reject the Truths of TULIP you are rejecting the Truths that are Representative of The Gospel of the Grace of God, you can dismiss it as calvinism all you like, you are still being dismissive of the Gospel ! Acts 20:24

...

If you reject Unconditional Election of Grace of some of mankind, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Limited and Particular Atoning Death of Christ only for His Church the Sheep, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

If you dont believe in the Sovereign effectual Call of the Spirit unto the Elect only, you reject the Gospel of God's Grace !

...

Thank you for your honesty. I believe that being a Calvinist, one would have no choice but to conclude the same as you do.

Often we get into an odd "game" with Calvinists when contrasting Calvinism to the Bible where they try and slip this way and that claiming nobody can really know what Calvinism teaches except a Calvinist etc.

SavedByMercy does not offer any of that nonsense. She is very consistent and up front with the teaching of Calvinism and not at all afraid to let us contrast what she admits about it with Bible texts where it does not seem to fair so well.

Few Calvinists are willing to state the case and then "let the chips fall where they may" but that cannot be said of SavedByMercy.

I for one am deeply grateful. I have seldom found such openness among Calvinists.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Few Calvinists are willing to state the case and then "let the chips fall where they may" but that cannot be said of SavedByMercy.

I for one am deeply grateful. I have seldom found such openness among Calvinists.

in Christ,

Bob

To a point she is, but often she ignores a few of the very pointed tough questions as seen in my "Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon" thread where I ask her twice now if one can believe on Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour yet reject TULIP and still be saved. No response......

 

[savedbymercy]

By the way, I am a man, and a man of God !

 

[BobRyan]

By the way, I am a man, and a man of God !

Sorry about that - I don't know how I got the impression you were a woman. I will ask the moderator to edit my post.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

To a point she is, but often she ignores a few of the very pointed tough questions as seen in my "Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon" thread where I ask her twice now if one can believe on Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour yet reject TULIP and still be saved. No response......

Still I think you will agree that he (SBM) has admitted to a great many views held by Calvinists - and logical conclusions for Calvinism - that many other Calvinists tend to hedge about as if the position they are taking is not as clearly stated and transparent for all to see, as in fact - it really is.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[convicted1]

Ummmmm, it's against BB rules to have a username in a thread title...

 

[steaver]

By the way, I am a man, and a man of God !

My apologies. For quite awhile now posters have been referring to you as "she" and you never corrected them so I assumed you were. He or she has nothing to do with debate, so I hope they were not trying to demean you in any way.

 

[BobRyan]

Ummmmm, it's against BB rules to have a username in a thread title...

They can edit it if they like - I am affirming SBM.

 

[steaver]

Still I think you will agree that he (SBM) has admitted to a great many views held by Calvinists - and logical conclusions for Calvinism - that many other Calvinists tend to hedge about as if the position they are taking is not as clearly stated and transparent for all to see, as in fact - it really is.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, but as I said not completely, and for good reason. You see, Calvinism, when it is thought through thoroughly with investigative questioning, has no choice but to conclude the extremes to which it wants to deny.

SBM admits that if one embraces TULIP then one must conclude TULIP to be the very Gospel which saves. But this causes another conclusion, which even SBM does not want to admit publically, which is those who do not embrace TULIP cannot be considered saved.

Calvinism, when honestly and objectively worked out to it's inevitable conclusions, self implodes upon itself. It gets cornered when it claims TULIP to be the very Gospel. But it has no other choice but to declare it the Gospel, for if it is not, then what is it? And if it is the Gospel, what of those who reject it? Quite the conundrum for the Calvinist.

 

[steaver]

Yes, but as I said not completely, and for good reason. You see, Calvinism, when it is thought through thoroughly with investigative questioning, has no choice but to conclude the extremes to which it wants to deny.

SBM admits that if one embraces TULIP then one must conclude TULIP to be the very Gospel which saves. But this causes another conclusion, which even SBM does not want to admit publically, which is those who do not embrace TULIP cannot be considered saved.

Calvinism, when honestly and objectively worked out to it's inevitable conclusions, self implodes upon itself. It gets cornered when it claims TULIP to be the very Gospel. But it has no other choice but to declare it the Gospel, for if it is not, then what is it? And if it is the Gospel, what of those who reject it? Quite the conundrum for the Calvinist.

Since this post from me, SBM has publically declared that those who do not believe TULIP is The Gospel indeed cannot be considered saved. But he is not alone. Two others on here have posted as much, without rebuke from any other Calvinist...ArchAngel did disagree with Icon but then waffled...but no other Calvinist stepped up to give rebuke.

First we have this exchange quote for quote...

Steaver....With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God

Answer....

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And then we have this exchange.....

Steaver....There are a few of you here tonight whom God is going to cause to believe the Gospel, which is also called Calvinism or TULIP. However, I must be totally honest, most here will not be able to believe because God will not cause you to believe but will let you remain in your condemned condition.

Answer...

Originally posted by convicted1...You're a quick learner...:thumbsup: kudos!!!

And then this....

Steaver...Now even some of you out here who think you are "believers" may protest. You may say, "well I'm a believer on Jesus Christ and a child of God, but I do not believe in TULIP/Calvinism. With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures as you claim, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God then

No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Answer...

Originally posted by convicted1...:thumbsup: you're slooooooooowly getting there....

 

[Revmitchell]

There is nothing commendable about claiming only cals are saved. It is heresy, it is evil, and it should not be tolerated nor commended.

 

[steaver]

There is nothing commendable about claiming only cals are saved. It is heresy, it is evil, and it should not be tolerated nor commended.

Absolutely agree!! And that is why TULIP is so wrong, if a TULIP believer be absolutely honest, as SBM has been, the belief leads to this inevitable conclusion.

This was the question in my thread "If not the Gospel, then what is it?". Which was closed for some reason.

You will hear the same testimony from all Calvinist which is "God opened my eyes" to TULIP. Well, if it is not the Gospel, then what value added does it have to the Christian walk?

If truth be known, I would wager 99% of Calvinist believe TULIP to be the Gospel in their hearts, they just don't want to publically say so. Even Spurgeon believed as much.

 

[convicted1]

I did not EVER state you or any non-cal were unbelievers, so don't put words in my mouth Steaver....

 

[steaver]

I did not EVER state you or any non-cal were unbelievers, so don't put words in my mouth Steaver....

Care to explain your answer in this exchange....

Quote:
Steaver...Now even some of you out here who think you are "believers" may protest. You may say, "well I'm a believer on Jesus Christ and a child of God, but I do not believe in TULIP/Calvinism. With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures as you claim, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God then

No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me


Answer...


Quote:
Originally posted by convicted1...:thumbsup: you're slooooooooowly getting there....

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, but as I said not completely, and for good reason. You see, Calvinism, when it is thought through thoroughly with investigative questioning, has no choice but to conclude the extremes to which it wants to deny.

SBM admits that if one embraces TULIP then one must conclude TULIP to be the very Gospel which saves.

I would agree that TULIP does describe and define limits for a gospel - just not the Gospel that you find in the Bible.

It describes how it is that someone gets saved and explains why some are saved and some are lost and it tells you how evangelism works at all.

But this causes another conclusion, which even SBM does not want to admit publically, which is those who do not embrace TULIP cannot be considered saved.

I agree to this extent - if one assumes that the gospel in Calvinism is correct - then the gospel in the Bible and thus in the Arminian model is false. It is "another gospel".

Calvinism, when honestly and objectively worked out to it's inevitable conclusions, self implodes upon itself. It gets cornered when it claims TULIP to be the very Gospel. But it has no other choice but to declare it the Gospel, for if it is not, then what is it? And if it is the Gospel, what of those who reject it? Quite the conundrum for the Calvinist.

 

[convicted1]

Jesus said His sheep will hear His voice. They will follow it, too. They know His voice and wherever He goes, they go. Not He goes and they can choose to go or stay. You quoted those verses and I :thumbsup: it.


I believe the DoG is a deeper theological system that explains God in fuller detail of how He deals with His chosen. But I would never call non-cals unbelievers. I was one the first 6+ years of my walk with God.

 

[steaver]

Jesus said His sheep will hear His voice. They will follow it, too. They know His voice and wherever He goes, they go. Not He goes and they can choose to go or stay. You quoted those verses and I :thumbsup: it.

No Willis. A debate board does not work that way. You cannot slice and dice out of context and then say you answered the quote.

The full quote is given, the issue is why doesn't all Christians embrace TULIP, the answer given was because they all are not Jesus' sheep. At which you gave a :thumbsup:

Now either you can humble yourself and say you were wrong and the sheep answer to the question is wrong, or you can double down and keep on trying to slice and dice. What will you do?

ps. I know Icon is your hero and you know it was him who gave the answer of them not being sheep to the question as to why they all do not embrace TULIP. This places Icon in agreement with SBM. Do you want to stick with them, or do you want to take a stand and rebuke them?

 

[convicted1]

Okay Steaver, I will go over your sermon once more....

Good evening everyone! So glad you all are here tonight. I will begin by telling you this, you are not here tonight by chance or any choosing of your own to come. No, God has caused you to be here tonight to hear His message which I will deliver to you tonight straight from the very word of God!

No one would ever state this. However, those who are saved are not saved by chance. In other words, God works out the time, place, and gospel message to bring salvation to fruition. So, in reality, if they're saved then, they were not there by chance, but devine decree.

Let's begin in Matthew chapter 7 verses 13&14. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

True statement.

There are a few of you here tonight whom God is going to cause to believe the Gospel, which is also called Calvinism or TULIP. However, I must be totally honest, most here will not be able to believe because God will not cause you to believe but will let you remain in your condemned condition.

Calvinism or TULIP is a system that best displays how God deals with all creation in regards to His sovereignity, imo.

You see, the way God is portrayed in the bible is One who chooses according to His good will and pleasure, loves some and hates the rest, has mercy on some and hardens the others, calls some and leaves the rest in their fallen state.

Thanks! I agree with this. It sounds familiar.

A few of you here tonight are loved by God, you will know who you are because you will believe in TULIP/Calvinism/Gospel. But those of you here tonight who cannot believe this are hated by God, God is passing you bye, you were created just for the purpose of showing God's wrath, that He may destroy you in the lake of fire to exist in torture for ever and ever, never to escape.

This is a stoopid statement. The gospel is God's power in saving sinners.

Now even some of you out here who think you are "believers" may protest. You may say, "well I'm a believer on Jesus Christ and a child of God, but I do not believe in TULIP/Calvinism. With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures as you claim, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God then?"

Again, TULIP or Calvinism best explains how God works, imo...

No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I don't disagree with this in the least.

In closing let me congratulate those here who God has caused to believe the Gospel/TULIP. God loves you very much and has forgiven all your sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. And for those here tonight who do not believe, you deserve the eternal hell God is going to send you to because you refuse to believe and God hates you. I offer no condolences, for what God hates I must hate, and whom God hates I must hate also, for I am called to be holy as my Father in heaven is holy.

I don't congratulate people, I praise God for saving them. If they refuse to believe, they deserve hell. God hates, but if we hate, we're considered a murderer. God's a jealous God, but if we're jealous, it's as cruel as the grave. God revenges, but if we do, we sin. God's righteous in all His ways, we're not...

 

[BobRyan]

then you may find this to reflect the spirit of Calvinism - never preached.

================================================== ==================

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Nothing I say and nothing you choose this evening will make any difference at all in the outcome,

You cannot obtain salvation by choosing something today nor can you affect your eternal doom if in fact you are forsaken of God.

You and I have no control at all over that.

Let's all just be seated for the rest of the meeting - and in silence watch to see what God is sovereignly going to do, perhaps He will cause someone to get saved as we watch.

20 minute pause ...

Dismissed.

================================================== =========

CAlvinism that is monergistic - declares that man does nothing... nada...zilch

 

[OldRegular]

I am one of those Arminians on this board that has responded to SavedByMercy with many many Bible texts to oppose her views about how the Gospel works.

As a result it might seem that I and other Arminians are not fully appreciative of her efforts. This thread is to affirm and applaud the fact that she is standing up for Calvinism - not hedging, not playing a shell game with it. But boldly admitting to its principles.

I would not say he SBM is standing up for anything but his warped view of the Doctrines of Grace and the Salvation of those who disagree with him!