Women pastors

[AustinC]

To answer the OP let me tell you a true story that will answer the question... After service of a visiting Elder that was visiting our church... When he finished preaching a Woman came up to him and said... I believe the Lord has called me to preach!... The preacher look at her and said... Is that so?... During the time that he was talking to her some children boys and girls were chasing each other around the church and the noise was interrupting the conversation... So she raised her voice thinking that preacher she was talking to, didn't hear her... She repeated... I THINK THE LORD HAS CALLED ME TO PREACH!... He said I heard you the first time and if he did call you... Pointing to children raising ruckus said... Woman there is your congregation!... Brother Glen

Well, there certainly are a lot of men who act like children so she could preach to them...

 

[canadyjd]

Canadyjd

Why do you find my post funny.
I see nothing funny about a person being a h0mose/ual - esp a pastor.

Apologies, I thought you made a joke. I have removed m “funny” icon, though it looks like someone else thought it was funny, too.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The greek can be translated, I do not presently, at this time, allow women to teach. It does not have to be universal for all time.
Based upon Paul's relationship with Priscilla and Phoebe, I suspect he had a great admiration for these two "evangelists."
Now, you know my opinion that a man should be the shepherd. Yet, frankly, men often shirk the responsibility, or they beat the flock when they become shepherds. In such cases, Godly women may be forced to take on the role simply because the men are such horrible shepherds.
Again, women can, but men should.

Please explain, using the Greek, how it could be interpreted as “I do not presently, at this time, allow women to preach.”

I simply find it hard to believe Paul would make the statement like that, and then give his reasoning as based on the creation and the fall.

Would the creation and the fall somehow change if women became educated?

peace to you

 

[Salty]

Apologies, I thought you made a joke. I have removed m “funny” icon, though it looks like someone else thought it was funny, too.

peace to you

Thank you !
I use that example - as a reason that a female should not be a pastor
In addition - I refuse to use the word "gay" for a h0mose/al - as "gay' means happy.

I will not allow political correctness to take over our language.
Same reason, why I tell people that I am pro-choice -
I believe that ONLY the child should have the right to choose abortion.

I want people to fully think about these issues.

 

[Cathode]

Thank you !
I use that example - as a reason that a female should not be a pastor
In addition - I refuse to use the word "gay" for a h0mose/al - as "gay' means happy.

I will not allow political correctness to take over our language.
Same reason, why I tell people that I am pro-choice -
I believe that ONLY the child should have the right to choose abortion.

I want people to fully think about these issues.

Political correctness is tyranny of thought. The Marxist idea was to get people to self censor for fear of being denounced.
Once they get you to use their terms, they win. It’s an evil demonic strategy that takes place under their noses.

One dude asked me how they think up this stuff. I told him flat out it’s demonic.

For example Critical theory, to criticise as a weapon, is just rebadged accusation like Satan the accuser. So they are using satanic weapons.

 

[Aaron]

The Reformed verdict on that, by John Calvin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion IV 10:9-30, is:

"the hours set apart for public prayer, sermon, and solemn services; during sermon, quiet and silence, fixed places, singing of hymns, days set apart for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the prohibition of Paul against women teaching in the Church, and such like....things of this nature are not necessary to salvation, and, for the edification of the Church, should be accommodated to the varying circumstances of each age and nation, it will be proper, as the interest of the Church may require, to change and abrogate the old, as well as to introduce new forms. I confess, indeed, that we are not to innovate rashly or incessantly, or for trivial causes. Charity is the best judge of what tends to hurt or to edify: if we allow her to be guide, all things will be safe.
Things which have been appointed according to this rule, it is the duty of the Christian people to observe with a free conscience indeed, and without superstition, but also with a pious and ready inclination to obey. They are not to hold them in contempt, nor pass them by with careless indifference, far less openly to violate them in pride and contumacy. You will ask, What liberty of conscience will there be in such cautious observances? Nay, this liberty will admirably appear when we shall hold that these are not fixed and perpetual obligations to which we are astricted, but external rudiments for human infirmity, which, though we do not all need, we, however, all use, because we are bound to cherish mutual charity towards each other. This we may recognise in the examples given above. What? Is religion placed in a woman’s bonnet, so that it is unlawful for her to go out with her head uncovered? Is her silence fixed by a decree which cannot be violated without the greatest wickedness? Is there any mystery in bending the knee, or in burying a dead body, which cannot be omitted without a crime? By no means. For should a woman require to make such haste in assisting a neighbour that she has not time to cover her head, she sins not in running out with her head uncovered. And there are some occasions on which it is not less seasonable for her to speak than on others to be silent. Nothing, moreover, forbids him who, from disease, cannot bend his knees, to pray standing. In fine, it is better to bury a dead man quickly, than from want of grave-clothes, or the absence of those who should attend the funeral, to wait till it rot away unburied. Nevertheless, in those matters the custom and institutions of the country, in short, humanity and the rules of modesty itself, declare what is to be done or avoided."

For instance, as in a time of war, when men at home are scarce. Calvin isn't advocating an acquiescence to the spirit of any age, but to the "circumstances" thereof. Feminism is not a natural or valid custom or institution of any country.

The first pastor of memory for me was a woman. She started a Sunday school during WWII, and was still pastoring by consent of the elders (all male) some twenty five years after the war ended and the men returned. My grandmother started attending with my dad and uncle when my Grandfather was fighting in Europe, and was saved there. The woman pastored till her death in the early 70s.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

For those who object to them, what is your basis for doing so? The words of Paul? As a result of the Fall and Eve's part in it? Because Adam was created first? All of these? More?

Yes. The words of God recorded by Paul are the basis of my beliefs. As with the rest of Scripture.

 

[tyndale1946]

Well, there certainly are a lot of men who act like children so she could preach to them...

Well Austin I hate to break it to you like this but when Dad was working, Lord have mercy!... Could my Mother preach!... That was her calling, raising four, three sons and one daughter... In a Christian home!... Brother Glen

 

[5 point Gillinist]

To play the foil...the passage you are referencing can be understood to say, I do not, presently, at this time, allow women to teach. The reason is that women were uneducated. This is no longer true. Some of the best educators in Christian Universities and Seminaries are women. The training they provide in learning Greek or Hebrew is equal to any. For example, Nancy Guthrie's 5 book series on seeing Jesus in the Old Testament is as good as anything you will find in Reformed circles.

Respectfully, Paul goes into created order in 1 Tim 2:13-15, citing Eve as being deceived. She was deceived because Adam was given God's word and was to instruct her, instead he followed her lead (willfully and knowingly violating God's word) because he allowed her to usurp his God-given role as the leader. If this was a moratorium then created order would not have been cited, nor the consequences of Eve's being deceived.

In chp 3:4-5 Paul states that one of the many qualifications is that he must manage his household well, in V. 3 he must be a one-woman man, etc. these are all gender-specific roles of the man.

This isn't a matter of women being educated, but a matter of obedience. Unfortunately (as in many other areas) the church has allowed secular think to shape its view.

 

[Duckie]

1 Corinthians 11:3 shows an order of headship put in place by God.

1 Peter 3 shows the beauty shown by Sarah through her humility and obedience.

"Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.

For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear." (v.4-6)

I'd consider it more valuable to be seen as precious in God's sight.

 

[SavedByGrace]

1 Corinthians 11:3, 7-9

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God...For a man indeed ought not to have his head covered, because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. Nor was the man created for the woman, but the woman for the man"

1 Timothy 2:11-14

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression

1 Timothy 3:1-2

This is a faithful saying: someone who seeks to be an overseer desires a good work. The overseer therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable, good at teaching

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God (ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος masculine, with the article, MALE, not the generic use of ἄνθρωπος, which also includes woman) may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

Titus 1:5-6

For this cause I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking and ordain elders (πρεσβυτέρους, masculine) in every city, as I had appointed you, if anyone is blameless, husband of one wife, having believing children, not accused of loose behavior, or disobedient

 

[SavedByGrace]

1 Corinthians 11:3 shows an order of headship put in place by God.

1 Peter 3 shows the beauty shown by Sarah through her humility and obedience.

"Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.

For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear." (v.4-6)

I'd consider it more valuable to be seen as precious in God's sight.

I don't see in the passage in 1 Peter, where it says anything about whether women can be "Pastors/Leaders"? It is talking about the relationship between the husband and wife in a marriage.

 

[Duckie]

I don't see in the passage in 1 Peter, where it says anything about whether women can be "Pastors/Leaders"? It is talking about the relationship between the husband and wife in a marriage.

Right, but because I agree with verses you posted are direct and to the point, but I have learned overtime everyone will either say the same thing or pick it apart.

So just offering a different perspective, the obedience to God's natural order, and with respect to that order on the woman's part tends to be submission.

Even if you aren't going to submit to a husband, you will still have to submit to God and be obedient to the Word.

That same quietness and character precious in the sight of God in 1 Peter 3, in my opinion, is not limited to married women. It may be addressing wives specifically, but it brings up the character of a Godly woman.

Many women will study to have the character of the Proverbs 31 woman to prepare them for marriage while praying for a husband, but few will look to the example of Sarah.

"A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies."

Most of you seem to be men. Who of you would find a wife but go without bothering to acknowledge her character? The same example shown by Sarah should be built up in her first.

 

[Iconoclast]

1 tim.3:14-15 the word in the kjv lightest is the word MUST.
How the must behave in the house of God.
No gray area.
The woman was utterly deceived...was in transgression.
Nothing says Eve was uneducated.

 

[Reynolds]

Canadyjd

Why do you find my post funny.
I see nothing funny about a person being a h0mose/ual - esp a pastor.

I didn't rate it funny, but it is hilarious. It is very true, but hilarious in the way you said it.

 

[Reynolds]

We also have the philosophy that Sunday School\Sunday AM Adult Bible Study teachers are to pastor their classes.

I don't know where you got that philosophy. Paul differentiated explicitly between teaching women, kids and pastoring.

 

[Reynolds]

To play the foil...the passage you are referencing can be understood to say, I do not, presently, at this time, allow women to teach. The reason is that women were uneducated. This is no longer true. Some of the best educators in Christian Universities and Seminaries are women. The training they provide in learning Greek or Hebrew is equal to any. For example, Nancy Guthrie's 5 book series on seeing Jesus in the Old Testament is as good as anything you will find in Reformed circles.

Now, my reasoning for men being Pastors is not that women can't. The certainly can. My point is that while woman can, men should. Why? Because, God gave Adam the role of leader and protector. Adam was supposed to crush the serpents head. Men, as shepherds, are to crush the serpents head when it endangers the flock. Moses was supposed to circumcise his sons, not Zipporah. She was forced to do it when Moses wouldn't and God was going to kill Moses. Men are to love their wives like Christ loves the church. This is a role of care and shepherding. It is one that is, or should be, very humbling since Christ died for the church.
Again, it's not that women can't. It's that men should.

Paul did not say now in my churches only. He could have easily said that, but he didn't. My Greek knowledge is poor. Did my best to avoid as much of it as I could. MacArthur breaks this passage down in Greek and says that the Greek Phrasing Paul used was plainly and concretely universal and eternal. He goes on to explain how Paul would have phrased it if it were local and temporary.

 

[Reynolds]

Thank you !
I use that example - as a reason that a female should not be a pastor
In addition - I refuse to use the word "gay" for a h0mose/al - as "gay' means happy.

I will not allow political correctness to take over our language.
Same reason, why I tell people that I am pro-choice -
I believe that ONLY the child should have the right to choose abortion.

I want people to fully think about these issues.

I just say I am anti-murder.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

I will not allow political correctness to take over our language.

That's odd, I had you pegged as a PC thug.

 

[AustinC]

Please explain, using the Greek, how it could be interpreted as “I do not presently, at this time, allow women to preach.”

I simply find it hard to believe Paul would make the statement like that, and then give his reasoning as based on the creation and the fall.

Would the creation and the fall somehow change if women became educated?

peace to you

Paul is likely addressing an issue with a female cult in Ephesus where women were presented as the first creation. It was essentially a feminist cult. Since many of the persons in the church were once a part of that cult, Paul is correcting them. He reminds them of the issue at the fall where Adam failed to crush the serpents head while not intervening between the serpent and the woman.
In context, his reason to not have them speak is a very practical, theological reason within Ephesus.

Remember my point:
Women can, but men should.

1 Timothy 2:8-15

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.