Women pastors

[AustinC]

Paul did not say now in my churches only. He could have easily said that, but he didn't. My Greek knowledge is poor. Did my best to avoid as much of it as I could. MacArthur breaks this passage down in Greek and says that the Greek Phrasing Paul used was plainly and concretely universal and eternal. He goes on to explain how Paul would have phrased it if it were local and temporary.

I was at Moody Bible Institute (many years ago) and listened to a debate where the person arguing for women as preachers brought up the greek in 1 Timothy 2, that I expressed. The other person had to concede that the greek could be translated as "I do not, presently, at this time, allow women to teach."

Again, women can, but men should.

 

[Reynolds]

I was at Moody Bible Institute (many years ago) and listened to a debate where the person arguing for women as preachers brought up the greek in 1 Timothy 2, that I expressed. The other person had to concede that the greek could be translated as "I do not, presently, at this time, allow women to teach."

Again, women can, but men should.

Again, that is not what the passage says.

 

[Salty]

That's odd, I had you pegged as a PC thug.

Nope - I am NOT PC - I am politically Right!

 

[canadyjd]

Paul is likely addressing an issue with a female cult in Ephesus where women were presented as the first creation. It was essentially a feminist cult. Since many of the persons in the church were once a part of that cult, Paul is correcting them. He reminds them of the issue at the fall where Adam failed to crush the serpents head while not intervening between the serpent and the woman.
In context, his reason to not have them speak is a very practical, theological reason within Ephesus.

Remember my point:
Women can, but men should.

1 Timothy 2:8-15

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

I didn’t see your explanation of how the language, in the Greek, of “I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man” can mean “I do not presently, at this time, allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man”. Parse the grammar of those Greek sentences.

When you give that deep dive into the Greek, please explain how women being educated changes the creation and the fall, which is the basis of Paul’s prohibition.

Saying that “women can but men should” is changing scripture in an attempt to straddle the fence and have it both ways, imo.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am politically Right!

and never wrong?

 

[Salty]

and never wrong?

Think: Congrès du Parlement français

 

[Salty]

and never wrong?

Actually, there was once I thought I was wrong - but i was mistaken

 

[ntchristian]

The passage from 1 Timothy can only be rightly understood in the plain meaning of the words of the text. Paul did not say “not presently, at this time, because women are uneducated”.

His reason is based on the creation and the fall, not on a woman’s ability or education level.

And, imo, this prohibition applies only to leadership positions, over men, in the church which includes pastors and/or elders. If deacons are considered leaders (though they shouldn’t be considered anything else but servants) then the prohibition applies to deacons as well.

Peace to you

Thank you for your reasoned reply. However, what about the verse that says that in Christ Jesus there is neither male nor female? Doesn't that undo the consequences of the fall?

 

[ntchristian]

Yes. The words of God recorded by Paul are the basis of my beliefs. As with the rest of Scripture.

So, do you require your women to keep their mouths shut from the time they enter the church until they leave, and require them to wear a head covering?

 

[ntchristian]

I wonder how Baptists feel about Pentecostals allowing women pastors/preachers. How do you know you are right and they are wrong? Baptists would probably say Pentecostals are wrong on this and spirit baptism/spiritual gifts -- in other words, that error accompanies error. But Pentecostals would say Baptists are also wrong on eternal security. So, how would an objective observer/seeker determine who is wrong on women pastors?

 

[Van]

In answer to the OP question, I do not think women should be Pastors, because that seems to be the most probable understanding of God's inspired Word. I think I understand the argument that all these verses simply reflect a cultural accommodation with the paternalistic culture of those days. On the other side of the ledger, I think we should accept that God's word means what is says...

 

[JesusFan]

For those who object to them, what is your basis for doing so? The words of Paul? As a result of the Fall and Eve's part in it? Because Adam was created first? All of these? More?

never was stated in the bible that women were to be be appointed as pastors and elders in the local churches!

 

[5 point Gillinist]

So, do you require your women to keep their mouths shut from the time they enter the church until they leave, and require them to wear a head covering?

Thanks for the non-argument.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Thank you for your reasoned reply. However, what about the verse that says that in Christ Jesus there is neither male nor female? Doesn't that undo the consequences of the fall?

Galatians 3:28 has nothing to do with gender roles.

 

[Reynolds]

Not the exact sermon I am looking for, but Mac deals with it here but not to the extent he does in another teaching I can't find.

 

[Reynolds]

I wonder how Baptists feel about Pentecostals allowing women pastors/preachers. How do you know you are right and they are wrong? Baptists would probably say Pentecostals are wrong on this and spirit baptism/spiritual gifts -- in other words, that error accompanies error. But Pentecostals would say Baptists are also wrong on eternal security. So, how would an objective observer/seeker determine who is wrong on women pastors?

Scripture says what it says. Baptisms could be debated. Scripture leaves that area open for interpretation. Women pastors are clearly prohibited. Many Pentecostals now hold to eternal security.
If you want to shut up someone from Church of God Cleveland,Tn. denom; just ask them why women wearing pants, jewelry, or makeup was a sin and is no longer a sin simply because the convention voted it to no longer be a sin. They will never get past that and back to topic.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Not the exact sermon I am looking for, but Mac deals with it here but not to the extent he does in another teaching I can't find.

MacArthur gave the best answer I've ever heard to the "women pastor" question: Go home.

 

[ntchristian]

Scripture says what it says. Baptisms could be debated. Scripture leaves that area open for interpretation. Women pastors are clearly prohibited. Many Pentecostals now hold to eternal security.
If you want to shut up someone from Church of God Cleveland,Tn. denom; just ask them why women wearing pants, jewelry, or makeup was a sin and is no longer a sin simply because the convention voted it to no longer be a sin. They will never get past that and back to topic.

Having been Orthodox, I understand the position on banning women pastors. Orthodox view it from both scripture and tradition. However, since leaving Orthodoxy, I have come to believe that on this issue, as well as others, the context of Paul's statements must be taken into account.

 

[Scarlett O.]

So, do you require your women to keep their mouths shut from the time they enter the church until they leave, and require them to wear a head covering?

My church does not require "women to keep their mouths shut from the time they enter the church until they leave" as the Bible does not require this.

I Corinthians is all about a church that is in a ridiculous hot mess. It would be laughable if not so sad. But God, through Paul does not condemn this church to hell and shut it down but instructs it and moves it to change. Even in its pathetic state, there is great hope for this body of Christ BECAUSE of Christ.

In 1 Corinthains 14, there are three groups of people instructed to "keep silent" in a worship service.

• Those speaking in tongues when another person begins to speak in tongues. Only 2 or 3 are given permission to speak in tongues and once the next begins to speak, the first is to "keep silent". To ME, God via the Holy Spirit prompts the tongues, this will keep order in the service and prevent people just jumping up willy-nilly. The Holy Spirit will not prompt many people at once as that is not order. That is just my opinion.
• Those prophesying. Again, only 2 or 3 are allowed to prophecy in a worship service and once the second one begins to speak, the first is to "keep silent". The same principle above applies.
• Wives asking questions out loud is forbidden. They are told to ask husbands questions at home. Women in services where the scriptures are read and discussed was a new thing to women. Women were not in the synagogues where scriptures were read and discussed.

Paul already said in chapter 11 that women could pray and prophecy in church as long as they wore a head covering [if married to show they have a headship].

My church does not have female pastors, but we have had, under the direction of my ultra-conservative pastor, women to make announcements about missions, to give testimony from the pulpit, serve on every committee we have, and more. Our women sing in the choir and sing solos. We just to not have female pastors.

 

[ntchristian]

My church does not require "women to keep their mouths shut from the time they enter the church until they leave" as the Bible does not require this.

I Corinthians is all about a church that is in a ridiculous hot mess. It would be laughable if not so sad. But God, through Paul does not condemn this church to hell and shut it down but instructs it and moves it to change. Even in its pathetic state, there is great hope for this body of Christ BECAUSE of Christ.

In 1 Corinthains 14, there are three groups of people instructed to "keep silent" in a worship service.

• Those speaking in tongues when another person begins to speak in tongues. Only 2 or 3 are given permission to speak in tongues and once the next begins to speak, the first is to "keep silent". To ME, God via the Holy Spirit prompts the tongues, this will keep order in the service and prevent people just jumping up willy-nilly. The Holy Spirit will not prompt many people at once as that is not order. That is just my opinion.
• Those prophesying. Again, only 2 or 3 are allowed to prophecy in a worship service and once the second one begins to speak, the first is to "keep silent". The same principle above applies.
• Wives asking questions out loud is forbidden. They are told to ask husbands questions at home. Women in services where the scriptures are read and discussed was a new thing to women. Women were not in the synagogues where scriptures were read and discussed.

Paul already said in chapter 11 that women could pray and prophecy in church as long as they wore a head covering [if married to show they have a headship].

My church does not have female pastors, but we have had, under the direction of my ultra-conservative pastor, women to make announcements about missions, to give testimony from the pulpit, serve on every committee we have, and more. Our women sing in the choir and sing solos. We just to not have female pastors.

My comments were about being scripturally consistent, which I have found many opposed to women pastors not to be.