women priests excommunicated/thoughts?

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
dual,

You seem to be misunderstanding what the Catholic Church teaches. The Pope is not always infallible. He is only infallible when speaking in regards to faith and morals.

LaRae

Wouldn't you say that things like official Catholic doctrine and "Apostolic Letters" have something to do with what you call faith and morals?

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
I'm pretty sure that UncleRay is aware that the official position of the Catholic church is that only men may be ordained as priests, and that it is also the official position of the Catholic church that the pope is infallible, but he disagrees anyway.

No offense, but perhaps it would be best not to assume what the beliefs and knowledge of others may be. You would do better to ask, then draw your conclusions.

Have you reading what has been posted here by other Catholics concerning the Pope, the Church, and infalability?

Are you certain that you have a true understanding of infalability as actually taught by the Church? Or does your knowledge of it come only from sources outside of the Catholic Church?</font>[/QUOTE]See above for infalliability and see below for the beliefs of a Catholic posting here and then we'll see if I'm making false conclusions.

Originally posted by UncleRay:
The only time I'm ever called a liberal is when my faith is involved. I am liberal when we ask how great is God's love. Just to set the facts straight, I very much oppose abortion and the death penalty.

I am Roman Catholic and still support the ordination of women.

Now there is a big difference in supporting the ordination in my prayers and discussions and actually attending or supporting the type of woman's ordination that happened recently. I agree with my more conservative friends that the recent ordination was not a valid Roman Catholic ordination.

The major Catholic theologans I read tend to support the ordination of women. The pope commissioned research by the Vatican's Biblical Commission. They returned the position that there is no definite prohibition for women priests. They also concluded there is no specific scripture requiring women to be priests.

The report has been pretty much ignored just as the research on birth control was ignored.

For now there are no ordained Roman Catholic women priests. Some day there will be (IMHO). But not likely in my lifetime.

Some Catholics believe that this subject cannot even be discussed. It is a closed issue. Obviously I don't agree.

Catholic and universal does not mean uniform. Still, in practice I follow the leadership of the Church.

Grace and peace,
Uncle Ray

 

[Frank]

Hi All,
This discussion about women priests has been interesting. It appears some support women priests some do not. The pope says nay, others say yea. The Word of God has already settled this issue. In Timothy 2:11,12, the Bilbe says, "Let the women learn in silence ( quietness) with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authotiy over the man but to be in silence." WHY? vs. 13," For Adam was first formed then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being in the transgression."
God has established a "pecking order". It is found in I Cor. 11:3.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Frank:
Hi All,
This discussion about women priests has been interesting. It appears some support women priests some do not. The pope says nay, others say yea. The Word of God has already settled this issue. In Timothy 2:11,12, the Bilbe says, "Let the women learn in silence ( quietness) with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authotiy over the man but to be in silence." WHY? vs. 13," For Adam was first formed then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being in the transgression."
God has established a "pecking order". It is found in I Cor. 11:3.

Most of the people here agree with you on this issue but it is not what is being discussed, the issue being discussed is how the views of those who do think it is permitted affect their view of infalliability.

 

[UncleRay]

Greetings from Uncle Ray who is still Catholic.

First. Everything the pope says is not infallible. That has been stated previously on this thread. That is correct. We Catholics do not believe that the pope is without sin either.

Second. It is my understanding that the statement about the ordination of women was not an infallible statement. True, some believe that it was. Others do not. Including me.

Third. There is nothing that prevent my thoughts or discussion of theological issues, just because I am Catholic. I made a point of mentioning that I am obediant. Just not in agreement. We are not talking about discussion like denying the divinity of Christ or anything on that level.

Just as even the tax collectors love their children [ no big deal] we must love those who are not as lovable as our own children. So IMHO I believe that it is greater to obey [not actively support women who have been ordained] even though I disagree [with excluding women from the priesthood]. I hope that makes some sense.

Contrary to some views, Catholics are a diverse lot. Again universal does not mean uniform. Yet still within this tremendous diversity, there is great uniformity about serious issues.

Grace and peace, brothers and sisters,
Your Catholic Uncle Ray

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by UncleRay:
Greetings from Uncle Ray who is still Catholic.

First. Everything the pope says is not infallible. That has been stated previously on this thread. That is correct. We Catholics do not believe that the pope is without sin either.

Second. It is my understanding that the statement about the ordination of women was not an infallible statement. True, some believe that it was. Others do not. Including me.

Third. There is nothing that prevent my thoughts or discussion of theological issues, just because I am Catholic. I made a point of mentioning that I am obediant. Just not in agreement. We are not talking about discussion like denying the divinity of Christ or anything on that level.

Just as even the tax collectors love their children [ no big deal] we must love those who are not as lovable as our own children. So IMHO I believe that it is greater to obey [not actively support women who have been ordained] even though I disagree [with excluding women from the priesthood]. I hope that makes some sense.

Contrary to some views, Catholics are a diverse lot. Again universal does not mean uniform. Yet still within this tremendous diversity, there is great uniformity about serious issues.

Grace and peace, brothers and sisters,
Your Catholic Uncle Ray

LOL! Slow loading pages can be funny: "The Holy Fat"

It's official doctrine of the RCC, hence to disagree with it is to disagree with infalliability:

1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68 - Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[UncleRay]

Morning Dualhunter,

You said
It's official doctrine of the RCC, hence to disagree with it is to disagree with infalliability:

Beep! Sorry, no cigar.

You assume that every word in the CCC is an infallible statement. Not true. Consequently your little string of logic doesn't work.

I only wish tht I could convey to you the beauty and truth of the Church in these short little , friendly exchanges. You must experience the Church to really understand and appreciate her. It is not just legal argments, but a way of life as well. But we work with what we have.

Grace and peace,
UncleRay

 

[Briguy]

Frank, We agree!!!!!!!!!!

Uncle Ray,
You never answered my question, which Frank made clear, on how you can believe in woman priests in light of what the Bible says (verses quoted above by Frank). Thanks in advance for answering

In Christ,
Brian

 

[LaRae]

Uncle Ray,

Even though the document where the Pope addresses women's ordination has not been declared infallible....this doesn't mean that we are free to disregard what it says. Humanae Viate isn't infallible either however we would do well to pay close attention to it.

Also it's my impression in reading the document I posted (women's ordination) that it's not up for debate or discussion. It's not an optional teaching.

LaRae

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Uncle Ray,

Even though the document where the Pope addresses women's ordination has not been declared infallible....this doesn't mean that we are free to disregard what it says. Humanae Viate isn't infallible either however we would do well to pay close attention to it.

Also it's my impression in reading the document I posted (women's ordination) that it's not up for debate or discussion. It's not an optional teaching.

LaRae

"I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

I must agree with LaRae. It is not an optional teaching.

[ August 07, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[Frank]

Dual:
The Bible has setled that issue also. Romans 3:23. No man is infalliable.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Frank:
The Bible has setled that issue also. Romans 3:23. No man is infalliable.

So tell me, were the writers of the Scriptures infallible in matters of faith when working under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

 

[LaRae]

Frank,

Well I guess you might as well toss that Bible out now.... fallible men wrote it...and they were sinners too I bet.

LaRae

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by UncleRay:
Morning Dualhunter,

You said
It's official doctrine of the RCC, hence to disagree with it is to disagree with infalliability:

Beep! Sorry, no cigar.

You assume that every word in the CCC is an infallible statement. Not true. Consequently your little string of logic doesn't work.

I only wish tht I could convey to you the beauty and truth of the Church in these short little , friendly exchanges. You must experience the Church to really understand and appreciate her. It is not just legal argments, but a way of life as well. But we work with what we have.

Grace and peace,
UncleRay

11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries".15 - Catechism of the Catholic Church

Looks like you're wrong again.

Frank: While I agree with you that no man is infallible, don't be surprised if one of the Catholics decides to give you a lecteur on the difference between infallible and impecable. The pope is conveniently infallible when needed and should you find a good example of where he is clearly not infallible they will conveniently say that infallibility doesn't apply in this case and so the pope is still infallible.

Originally posted by LaRae:
Frank,

Well I guess you might as well toss that Bible out now.... fallible men wrote it...and they were sinners too I bet.

LaRae

Fallible men inspired by the infallible Holy Spirit wrote the Bible. Don't bother claiming that the Catholic magisterium is divinely inspired cause it isn't.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
While I agree with you that no man is infallible, don't be surprised if one of the Catholics decides to give you a lecteur on the difference between infallible and impecable. The pope is conveniently infallible when needed and should you find a good example of where he is clearly not infallible they will conveniently say that infallibility doesn't apply in this case and so the pope is still infallible.

So you wish to define "infallible" for the Church and then tell the Church that it is wrong? How convienient for you.

Infallible and impecable are different words with different meanings. Can you tell me the difference?

 

[Dualhunter]

According to the Catholic church, infallible refers to the idea that the pope (and the magisterium but only when the agree with the pope, funny that) cannot make an error when speaking ex cathedra, basically it's a convient way to say we're always right. Impecable, would be basically the same as "without sin", given some of the abhorant things that popes have done at various points in history, the Catholic church is very wise to not claim impecability.

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

You either accept or you don't. I could post 100 different things that support Papal infallibility etc but you have to be willing to look at them with an open mind. My sandals remain dust free.

I am only here to make sure Church teachings are presented correctly and to give info if needed....although I do sometimes enjoy discussion different understandings of Scripture.

You are responsible for your own soul.

LaRae

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

You either accept or you don't. I could post 100 different things that support Papal infallibility etc but you have to be willing to look at them with an open mind. My sandals remain dust free.

I am only here to make sure Church teachings are presented correctly and to give info if needed....although I do sometimes enjoy discussion different understandings of Scripture.

You are responsible for your own soul.

LaRae

Good thing my soul already belongs to Christ. I strongly suggest moving your soul from the care of the Catholic church into the care of Christ, He is the redeemer of souls after all.

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

Do you really think it is appropriate for you to imply that my soul doesn't belong to Christ? Have I made such judgements about you?

Why don't you come home to the Catholic Church? The only Church Christ established before He left the earth.

Men (and women) greater and lesser than you have already done so.

LaRae

 

[Frank]

Hi All,
Yes, fallible men wrote the Bible. However, when they wrote, they were guided by the Holy Spirit. II Pet.1;20,21. The Pope is not being guided by the Holy Spirit as he was not promised the gift. See John 16:13. There is a difference in one writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and one making and unsubstantiated claim. I have posted the scriptures over and over about this matter. Here they are again. Joel 2:28 Lk. 24:46-51, Acts 2:1,17,; 8:17,18, I Cor. 13:8-13. I hope this clears the matter. INFALLIBILITY OCCURS WHEN THAT WHICH IS PROCLAIMED IS INSPIRED BY GOD. IT IS ACCOMPANIED BY MIRACULOUS SIGNS AND WONDERS. Mk. 16:17-20, II Cor. 12:12. Therefore, when Peter, Paul,Luke or any other writer of the physical writers of the Bilbe penned words They were indeed infallible in proclaiming the message of Heaven. Men today do not have this ability. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

Do you really think it is appropriate for you to imply that my soul doesn't belong to Christ? Have I made such judgements about you?

Why don't you come home to the Catholic Church? The only Church Christ established before He left the earth.

Men (and women) greater and lesser than you have already done so.

LaRae

I was raised Catholic so I already know that the Catholic church is dead. That doesn't mean all Catholics are dead but because the Catholic church can't get the gospel right, it makes it very difficult for followers of the Catholic church to be saved. All I'm suggesting to you is to drop the Catholic tendancy to put things in between man and Christ (for example you put your trust in the RCC thinking that through it you are putting your trust in Christ), instead put your trust directly in Christ alone.