women priests excommunicated/thoughts?

[LaRae]

Dual,

I have said I am Catholic so why would you infer something else? You were out of line.

Since you are human and imperfect you will die in some form of sin (assume you are killed in a car accident right after committing a sin).....so now what happens? You really think you can go the rest of your life and never commit any form of sin?

I want you to back up your claim that the Catholic Church teaches works are necessary. If you can't then I expect you to retract your statement.

Since you were Catholic then I am going to assume you are fully aware of the whole meaning of this. So in order to clarify (that we are on the same page) why don't you tell me what your understanding of invincible ignorance is?

Hmmmm no reason to bother .... well I guess that's a line you can try on judgement day.

LaRae

 

[SolaScriptura]

Eternal life is a free gift, you simply need to accept it,...(Dualhunter)

Baptism is accepting it not meriting it - it is the ANSWER TO GOD (accepting) 1 Pet 3:21

 

[donnA]

No man knows if he has guaranteed salvation.

Not what John wrote in 1 John.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

I have said I am Catholic so why would you infer something else? You were out of line.

Since you are human and imperfect you will die in some form of sin (assume you are killed in a car accident right after committing a sin).....so now what happens? You really think you can go the rest of your life and never commit any form of sin?

I said that you didn't specify what the other side, that could mean more than one thing. I seem to recall mentioning that Christ died for my sins (ie. He paid the penalty in my place).

I want you to back up your claim that the Catholic Church teaches works are necessary. If you can't then I expect you to retract your statement.

Already did, if you are not going to read, don't expect me to repost it.

Since you were Catholic then I am going to assume you are fully aware of the whole meaning of this. So in order to clarify (that we are on the same page) why don't you tell me what your understanding of invincible ignorance is?

Hmmmm no reason to bother .... well I guess that's a line you can try on judgement day.

LaRae

See the thread I started titled: Invincible ignorance.

Like I've said before, having found Christ, I no longer have a need to search for Him.

 

[Alex]

LaRaeand Brother Ed:

No where in the NT is there a rference to a second or third or any repeated salvatios therefore you can only be saved ONE time. If you are saved, young or old, you NEVER lose this gift of salvation by God via Jesus Christ. None of us know what we may do in the future as Jesus himself talked about the lost sheep. This was a reference to a SAVED person who, as some say, backslide fro a good Christian like. None of us are above this happening and we very well may die while in this state of sin BUT my Jesus blood washed all sin from me for past, present and future sins as I have been sealed by His blood sacrifice on the cross OR His death means knothing. YES, once saved, always saved UNLESS you can show me in the scriptures of many salvations, over and over for the same person. To repent is one thing and to be saved is something else. You or I could become a murder, rapist or some other evil person EVEN after being saved as we all have a sinful nature and I believe we will all sin many times again before we die.......the POPE also! You just do not hear about his.

Many, many scriptures can be posed to confirm this. By the way, the Oneness say tjhey are the original church and all others are false, including the Catholics. So which one is right here? Also the Mormons say they are. As for Baptist, we are not denominational as many think. We never officially split from the Catholic church, we just found out that using the bible ONLY was the right way and proceeded in that direction. Hail Mary's and the likes is totally tradition and has no bibical support. I feel very sorry for my Catholic friends who are so caught up in these rituals.

There is a sad case of this locally. A Catholic couple who are 100 and 99 and have been married for 79 years, are in a local nursing home. Our Pastor visited them last week and all she could reflect on after all these years as a Catholic, was Hail Mary's. Not a word about Jesus.....SAD, SAD!

God Bless............Alex

 

[Justin Nickelsen]

It was the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, specifically Cardinal Ratzinger--the Perfect of the CDF--that excommunicated them.

What do I think? I think that it is great. Whether people agree with the Church or not is one thing, but to know that She will stand up for what she believes is something that all Christians and different relgions can appreciate.

Justin
coredemptrix@catholic.org

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by Justin Nickelsen:
It was the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, specifically Cardinal Ratzinger--the Perfect of the CDF--that excommunicated them.

What do I think? I think that it is great. Whether people agree with the Church or not is one thing, but to know that She will stand up for what she believes is something that all Christians and different relgions can appreciate.

Justin
coredemptrix@catholic.org

Well, how about that.......another perfect human besides Jesus! And the church, which is what the bible and church members call a church(The Church), now I find out The Church is a she! If the Body of Christ is The Church, then why do you call it a she? Catholics seem to have many problems from within, really making big headlines now with these "perfect" and "infallible" leaders.

God Bless..............Alex

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Alex:
Well, how about that.......another perfect human besides Jesus! And the church, which is what the bible and church members call a church(The Church), now I find out The Church is a she! If the Body of Christ is The Church, then why do you call it a she? Catholics seem to have many problems from within, really making big headlines now with these "perfect" and "infallible" leaders.

Be careful Alex, you know what they say about glass houses.

There is a lot of "interesting" things on the internet about problems within the membership of the SBC.

Lacking an anti-SBC media to keep it out of the headlines doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Alex:
...now I find out The Church is a she! If the Body of Christ is The Church, then why do you call it a she?

Alex, you may find your answer in Scripture.

Who is the "bridegroom"?

Who is the bridegroom married to?

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

Where is this post you made that you claim proves the Catholic Church teaches works are necessary?

LaRae

 

[CatholicConvert]

Alex --

I do wish to be nice here, but honest to Pete, you would do me and others here a tremendous favor if you would study the covenant of God and try to understand how it works.

Nobody says that there are "second" "third" and "fourth" salvations. But salvation is a covenant, and there are principles of how a covenant works. These principles can be found in Ray Suttons book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER -- Dominion by Covenant which you may read free online. Sutton wrote this as a Protestant, so you have permission to read it. (I KNOW you guys don't bother reading any Catholic apologia, do you?)

Read Sutton's book, study the 5 principles of covenantalism, and then perhaps we won't have to have these ludicrous statements of yours anymore like "second, third, fouth" salvations, etc.

Covenants can be broken. Ponder that.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

Where is this post you made that you claim proves the Catholic Church teaches works are necessary?

LaRae

From a previous post of mine:

Baptism of desire and blood are just exceptions to the Catholic rule. The point is, if you don't do it (or qualify for the exception), then according to the RCC, you don't get into heaven. That shows that the RCC has no understanding of the finished work of Christ. Eternal life is a free gift, you simply need to accept it, not be baptized to merit it. According to the RCC, if you do not do that work, you don't get in, and also if you aren't good enough, you don't get in, therefore the RCC teaches salvation by what you do because your works affect whether or not you are saved.

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

That is not any proof that the Church teaches this. It is merely your opinion (which is incorrect I might add).

You show me using Catholic teaching that the Catholic Church teaches that works are a requirement to obtain salvation.

LaRae

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Alex:
Well, how about that.......another perfect human besides Jesus! And the church, which is what the bible and church members call a church(The Church), now I find out The Church is a she! If the Body of Christ is The Church, then why do you call it a she? Catholics seem to have many problems from within, really making big headlines now with these "perfect" and "infallible" leaders.

Be careful Alex, you know what they say about glass houses.

There is a lot of "interesting" things on the internet about problems within the membership of the SBC.

Lacking an anti-SBC media to keep it out of the headlines doesn't mean it isn't there. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the chastizing!! I often need it as some religions just sem to tick me off, and it shouldn't be that bad. At least I shouldn't be taking pot shots even if it warrants it. This was the first time in my 65 years that I ever heard any denomination call "The Church", she. No matter what, the Church is of Christ, a HE, so I still stand my ground. The Bride is a literal statement and was never meant to sugest that Christ's Church is a she for reference. Or a He even....just The Church, but I stand to be corrected.

AS for the other, I do't think anyone has ever said that ANY Baptist leaders were infallible or, for that matter, most other denominations, even the Oneness, as do the Catholics. Again the Pope is no greater than any other human....just more famous. There are some things that you don't need to be a Scholar to know........it's very bibically clear, unless someone twists it up a little.

It just "irks me to no end", when someone claims to be infallible. Christ was the only one and the only one that will ever be on this planet Earth.

But again, thanks. I'll try to hold my tongue a little better, unless someone else starts to throw.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

That is not any proof that the Church teaches this. It is merely your opinion (which is incorrect I might add).

You show me using Catholic teaching that the Catholic Church teaches that works are a requirement to obtain salvation.

LaRae

Do you deny that the Catholic church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation?

 

[CatholicConvert]

Eternal life is most certainly not a free gift, as least not in the sense YOU mean it, i.e. make a decision for Jesus and you are on your way to Heaven without fail. That is not according to Jesus, who said this regarding the obtaining of eternal felicity with God:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Furthermore, God says through the Apostle Paul:

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

I know you will try desparately to deny what is plainly written in those two sections of the Bible. So be it. You have free will and you are entitled to believe anything you wish. But as long as I have a Bible, and as long as those verses say what they say, I will continue to tell you that obtaining eternal life is based on how faithfully we keep the covenantal relationship with God which our baptism has entered us into. Those who break the covenant after having entered it shall be "cut off" from the inheritance which is waiting for the faithful covenant keepers -- eternal life.

You simply cannot "accept Jesus" and then do nothing the rest of your life and expect Heaven. Doesn't work that way. We are called to ever deepening unity with Him, to becoming more and more like Him, and the only way we do that is to do the works which make us like Him.

And yes, baptism is a necessity, for it is the way that we enter into the New Covenant. You can no more enter into the New Covenant of God without baptism than a Jew could enter the Old Covenantn without circumcision. Every covenant is a blood covenant, and blood must be shed to make a covenant. Without baptism, we do not enter into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and therefore, have not His Blood to offer to God to make covenant with Him.

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

Nice try, no cigar. The Catholic Church does not consider baptism a "work". Again either you prove using Catholic teachings that the Church says works are required or you retract your comment. You interpertation of Baptism is not what the Church teaches.

Do you not understand the Covenental Nature of the OT and NT? OT = Old Covenant, NT = New Covenant. Circumcision = Old Covenant, Baptism = New Covenant.

LaRae

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by LaRae:

Nice try, no cigar. The Catholic Church does not consider baptism a "work".

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, then....
Man does the work of baptizing. Man does the work of receiving the baptism. This is a work of man, not of God. Because God commands it, it is no less a work then it already is. The Catholic church may not consider it a work, that doesn't mean that it isn't a work. Because the Catholic church may call the color blue, "red," doesn't mean that it is.
DHK

 

[CatholicConvert]

DHK --

Once again you show your complete and total ignorance of Catholic and Orthodox teaching.

It is not man who does the baptizing. It is Christ through the priest. Of course, since you were most likely asleep in CCD classes, I don't expect you to remember this.

If it were merely man doing the baptizing, it would be like the Hindus who baptize themselves in the filthy Ganges River for the "remission of sins" (in which case they go into the river dry sinners unforgiven and come out of the water wet sinners unforgiven). Christ is not in their baptismal formula, Christ is not in their priests, therefore, Christ is not involved at all and it is, as you try to accuse of us, simply man doing that which he thinks is correct.

However, it is, in the case of both Orthodox and Catholic priests, CHRIST IN THEM (the hope of glory, remember?) doing the work. And our obedience in faith is not a work.

"Works salvation" is doing something, anything else than what God has commanded to be saved. Thus, following another "god" (Hinduism, Buddism, etc.) sacrificing chickens, fasting for 40 days on chicken salad only, or anything else we have not been commanded to do by the Lord is trying to gain His favor in OUR WAY NOT HIS WAY. But Jesus specifically did COMMAND BAPTISM for us (Matthew 28: 19) in order to bring people into the kingdom. Contrariwise, I see no passage of Jesus' words which commands "faith alone".

There is no such thing as making a covenant by "faith alone". Man is a tripartite being, therefore, body, soul, and spirit must be involved. Faith alone involves only the spirit of man. Redemption involves the whole man,, therefore, the whole man, body included, must be involved in the process of making covenant.

And as for the covenant of God, pallie boy, ya still don't git it!!! Like I said, do yerself a favor and read RAY SUTTON'S BOOK -- THAT YOU MAY PROSPER.

I am not impressed by people who won't read and study, and I know you haven't yet even tried to read this book.

Brother Ed

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

If it were merely man doing the baptizing, it would be like the Hindus who baptize themselves in the filthy Ganges River for the "remission of sins" (in which case they go into the river dry sinners unforgiven and come out of the water wet sinners unforgiven). Christ is not in their baptismal formula, Christ is not in their priests, therefore, Christ is not involved at all and it is, as you try to accuse of us, simply man doing that which he thinks is correct.

Good comparison Ed. I would use an example like that too. You go into the water dry, come out wet. There is no change. "Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away; all things are become new" (2Cor.5:17). That is not what happens at baptism. There is nothing that changes anyone. Like the Hindu, you go in dry and come out wet. That is the only change that takes place. Take every example you would like in the New Testament: they were all, without exception, baptized after salvation. I challenge you to find one clear example of infant baptism in the Scriptures, without arguing from silence, without reading something into the Scriptures that isn't there. Infant baptism isn't taught in the Bible, neither is your beloved covenantal theology. As I have pointed out to you before. There were Old Testament covenants, the most important one of which was to Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation. The New Testament covenant remains with the Jewish nation. We may receive some blessing because of it, but it is a covenant between God and Israel. Until you understand that, you are the one that does not understand covenants.

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you will be objective and fair to the Scriptures you will freely admit that these two verses teach salvation by faith alone.
1. It is not of yourselves. There is nothing you can do--including baptism.
2. It is a gift of God--entirely apart from man's efforts. A gift is a gift. It is not earned by man's works like baptism.
3. It is not of works--how plain can this be!! It is not of works. That means not of baptism or any other church rite, like being a member of the Catholic church. It is by faith alone. If you don't understand these verses, I don't know what of the Bible you will understand. It would seem then that you have willfully rejected the truth of God's Word.
DHK