women priests excommunicated/thoughts?

[LaRae]

Dual,

How anyone can go from being in the presence of Christ each Mass to a church that just goes thru the motions is beyond me.

I would like you to provide examples of what you say below. I put nothing between Christ and myself.

LaRae

I was raised Catholic so I already know that the Catholic church is dead. That doesn't mean all Catholics are dead but because the Catholic church can't get the gospel right, it makes it very difficult for followers of the Catholic church to be saved. All I'm suggesting to you is to drop the Catholic tendancy to put things in between man and Christ (for example you put your trust in the RCC thinking that through it you are putting your trust in Christ), instead put your trust directly in Christ alone.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

How anyone can go from being in the presence of Christ each Mass to a church that just goes thru the motions is beyond me.

I would like you to provide examples of what you say below. I put nothing between Christ and myself.

LaRae

It seems to be common Catholic behaviour to do the things which one complains about.

Your complaint:

"Do you really think it is appropriate for you to imply that my soul doesn't belong to Christ? Have I made such judgements about you?"

And what might you be hinting at here:

"You either accept or you don't. I could post 100 different things that support Papal infallibility etc but you have to be willing to look at them with an open mind. My sandals remain dust free.

I am only here to make sure Church teachings are presented correctly and to give info if needed....although I do sometimes enjoy discussion different understandings of Scripture.

You are responsible for your own soul."

And there you go and do it again:

"How anyone can go from being in the presence of Christ each Mass to a church that just goes thru the motions is beyond me."

The difference between me and you is that I have the honesty to be direct.

Since you didn't seem to understand it the first time I will explain this more in depth:

"(for example you put your trust in the RCC thinking that through it you are putting your trust in Christ)"

The RCC itself tries to wedge itself between man and Christ saying "Roman Catholic Church = Christ/Body of Christ", so that it can say you need to go through the Catholic Church to get to Christ. This is the same sort of tactic that the ICC uses, instead of calling people Christians they call them disciples and so they say "Christian = disciple = saved". It is a common tactic used to remove the focus from Christ and deceptively place it on the human organization.

Another example is of the Catholic church trying to drive a wedge between man and Christ is the RCC priesthood, which tries to set itself up as mediator between man and Christ when Christ is the sole mediator between man and the Father.

Catholicism is going through the motions, Christ is life.

 

[CatholicConvert]

OF COURSE!!!! *slaps forehead*

I should have KNOWN that Dualhunter is an X Catholic!! That explains his decided dislike for the Church!!

Nothing like an X Catholic for sheer outright screed agsinst the Church.

You know, your postings, as with all postings by X Catholics, shows that while yer body may have been in CCD classes, YOU didn't "get it". Yer mind was somewhere else. Either that, or...

you had a LOUSY catechist (which, sad to say, does happen).

Either way, your posts show that you don't know the Faith once delivered to the saints. And then, to top it off, some door knocker came around, smacked ya with a big ole KJV AV 1611 and convinced you that his assembly's private interpretation of the Scriptures is infallible.

As Karl Keating says in one of his books: "It has been my experience that of the hundreds of reverts to the Church whom I have met and talked with, the common theme confessed among them was that they really did not know the faith at all"

You really should put down yer sword and let us teach it to ya!!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed -- convert to the true Church after 25 years an anti-catholic bigot.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
I was raised Catholic...

And yet you demonstrate no knowledge of what the Church teaches.

My take on anti-Catholic former Catholics who don't really know what the Church teaches:

They sleep-walked through their faith formation years, and when they finally woke up, had to find someone to blame.

With this added bit of information, I will read with special care your future posts, to gently chide you when you misrepresent the teachings of the Church.

No doubt you understand that a claim to special knowledge of the Church, by virtue of your disclosure to having been raised Catholic, makes you all the more culpable when you misrepresent the Church's teachings. Kind of like someone who comes into court as an expert witness. Such a claim causes others to place more weight on your testimony.

I'll be reading with interest.

[ August 07, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

Do you really think it is appropriate for you to imply that my soul doesn't belong to Christ? Have I made such judgements about you?

Why don't you come home to the Catholic Church? The only Church Christ established before He left the earth.

Men (and women) greater and lesser than you have already done so.

LaRae

That's funny about the Catholic church as being the first and only true church. I say true church because you said to come home to this church. I can't seem to find "Catholic" in the entire bible???

As for the Pope or any other person in authority in the Catholic church, they are all humans, like myself, and are SINNERS and are not infallible. Only Jesus was infallible, period! I guess you believe that your local priest can forgive sin. If you do, you had better hope you don't die on the way out before you get one on one with Jesus as that particular sin will go as un-repented.

Brother Ed: I haven't forgotten about our debate but have been feeling bad and haven't been quite as active on the MB. I may start a "Catholic" thread and give you the URL when I get it started so we can continue where we left off, however it will not be a private debate as all will be welcome to join in from both sides. As it is going on here now, this might be as good a place as any??

God Bless..............Alex

[ August 07, 2002, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Alex ]

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

Christ established the Church. There is nothing between Christ and myself. I can only assume that you were poorly catechized or ignored/didn't understand, what you were being taught. I am an adult convert so I paid pretty close attention and studied for myself. It doesn't seem to me that you really understand the teachings of the Church.

Again, how can you turn your back on the Real Presence and go to a Church that doesn't believe?

This is serious stuff. I will pray for you.

If you get a chance to read much, I strongly urge you to read anything by Scott Hahn. "Rome Sweet Home", "Hail Holy Queen", "The Lamb's Supper" ....he does an excellent job of explaining, in easy to understand terms, about Church teaching and scriptural supports as well.

LaRae

 

[LaRae]

Alex,

Catholic means universal. If you wanna call it the pink polka dot church it really doesn't matter....what matters is it IS the Church that Christ established before He left the earth.

Popes are only infallible when speaking ex cathedra. The men who wrote down the words of the Bible were also directed by God, and I am sure they were sinners too. Peter was a sinner also but it doesn't lessen his role in the Church.

Scripture plainly teaches that Priests can forgive sins.

It's a rare person that won't die with some sin on their soul, because we are imperfect and sinners. How do you feel this will be handled?

LaRae

That's funny about the Catholic church as being the first and only true church. I say true church because you said to come home to this church. I can't seem to find "Catholic" in the entire bible???

As for the Pope or any other person in authority in the Catholic church, they are all humans, like myself, and are SINNERS and are not infallible. Only Jesus was infallible, period! I guess you believe that your local priest can forgive sin. If you do, you had better hope you don't die on the way out before you get one on one with Jesus as that particular sin will go as un-repented.

Brother Ed: I haven't forgotten about our debate but have been feeling bad and haven't been quite as active on the MB. I may start a "Catholic" thread and give you the URL when I get it started so we can continue where we left off, however it will not be a private debate as all will be welcome to join in from both sides. As it is going on here now, this might be as good a place as any??

God Bless..............Alex

 

[Alex]

LaRae:

Popes are only infallible when speaking ex cathedra. >>>>>>>>>

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Pope is no more infallible than I am. He is a SIMPLE human with NO hold on being infallible. Pope is a name much the same as the President. My, you would think he is God with all the reverence to him. We agree on one thing, we will all die with a sin that we may not have repented for. You confess to Jesus, not a man, to get forgivness.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The Pope nor the Priest, etc., are the Father as refered to above.

God Bless..........Alex

[ August 08, 2002, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Alex ]

 

[LaRae]

Alex,


The Bible is clear about Priests forgiving sins. Christ established the Catholic Church before he left the earth, Peter was given the keys, what he bound on earth was bound in heaven. We have apostolic succession.

Don't build straw men. I don't give the Pope any undue reverence and I am quite aware of the distinction of the Pope vs Christ.

You didn't answer me though, how do you feel it will be handled when we die with sin?

I really would suggest you do more study on Catholic teachings so you have a better understanding of where Catholics are coming from. As I told Dual, anything by Scott Hahn is excellent. Also there are various websites with detailed info for non-Catholics. If you would like the link to one or two let me know and I will post it.

LaRae

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Pope is no more infallible than I am. He is a SIMPLE human with NO hold on being infallible. Pope is a name much the same as the President. My, you would think he is God with all the reverence to him. We agree on one thing, we will all die with a sin that we may not have repented for. You confess to Jesus, not a man, to get forgivness.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The Pope nor the Priest, etc., are the Father as refered to above.

God Bless..........Alex

 

[Dualhunter]

I was not saved out of the Catholic church, my views before I was saved were a mix of liberal and conservative. Basically, I thought that the Bible was the Word of God and therefore authoritive and innerrant (a conservative view) but I though that anybody who believed that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins was saved (a liberal view). During my first year at University I start to study the Bible with a group which has evangelical doctrine but whose practices are sometimes questionable, but that entire time I still did not have anything against the Catholic church (nor did the guy I was studying with even though he had been raised Catholic and knew that he was dead while and had not been born again in the Catholic church) and when I would go home to my mother's house I would attend Catholic church (it's boring but 45 minutes isn't that long once you get older). While attending this group I started going to another group call the International Churches of Christ, they teach things like you must be a disciple (hence part of their church) and must be baptized by their church to be saved. Basically they challenged my liberal views which were lacking in Bible knowledge. I remembered that the Bible says that we are saved by faith but I didn't know where to find it.

Then I found this:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and (1) believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and (2) does not come into judgment, but has (3) passed out of death into life. - John 5:24 NASB

But I still was not born again nor was I against the Catholic church. There is a big difference between finding a verse and actually putting your trust in Christ.

Torn by confusion between what I had been taught and the views brought forth by the ICC, I called out to God to save me (see Romans 10), to bring me to him. And reading Romans 3, I expierenced joy, for the first time in my life, in knowing that yes, I fall short of God's glory and am not good enough to get into heaven, but God loved me so much that He gave the life of His only Son that I might have forgiveness of sins and new life in Christ.

But now apart from the Law (30) the righteousness of God has been manifested, being (31) witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the (32) righteousness of God through (33) faith (34) in Jesus Christ for (35) all those who believe; for (36) there is no distinction;
23 for all (37) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift (38) by His grace through (39) the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as (40) a propitiation (41) in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the (42) forbearance of God He (43) passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26 NASB

That's when I was born again by the Holy Spirit, but I still wasn't against the Catholic church because I figured that they taught the Bible so they must believe that trust in Christ was the only way to be saved. However as time went on, I heard the testimonies of ex-Catholic older than myself that, about how they were dead in the sins when they were Catholic, at the time, being much younger than they, I figured that the Catholic church today had changed since my experiences were different (except for not being born again). But when I read in the Catechism of the Catholic church that the Catholic church believes that water baptism is necessary for salvation (the main point of disagreement that I had had with the ICC), I knew that the Catholic church was dead, it did not know Christ who it claims to represent. Then I began to realized just how much my life had changed since that day when I first experienced joy, my heart had been fundamentally changed, I was no longer a slave to sin as I had been while I was Catholic and my life actually had meaning. I was a new creature in Christ. Christ has brought such joy and meaning to my life, that I will never give Him up, I have this joy because I trusted in Christ alone, I have been set free because I trusted in Christ alone, I live because I trust in Christ alone. We can argue about doctrine till the end of time, but because I know Christ, I am no-longer searching for truth, for I know with certainty that I have found the way, the truth and the life because I have found Christ.

So my question to you is, can you say with certainty that you have found Christ, that you are a new creation in Christ and that you have eternal life?

Now to deal with a couple other points:

"The Bible is clear about Priests forgiving sins."

That's strange because the Bible does not mention a new testament priesthood separate from the body of believers in Christ. It also says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. In the past when Catholic have been asked, "what if the priest declares the sin forgiven of somebody who isn't really sorry, is the sin still forgiven?" and the answer given is that yes the sin is still forgiven because the priest said so. This means that God who is the most high judge who knows all our hearts is unemployed and a good actor can get into heaven. The Bible does not agree with this position.

"Again, how can you turn your back on the Real Presence and go to a Church that doesn't believe?"

You cannot remember something that is happening. If something is happening it is being experienced, not remembered.

24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same way He took (1) the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the (2) new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death (3) until He comes. - 1 Corinthians 11:24-26

Jesus was not saying that people would eat his physical body and blood (which would be canabalism) anymore than he was telling Nicodemus to get back into his mother's uterus.

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

First off the Catholic Church teaches that Baptism of desire is valid. Water is not an absolute. Like I mentioned already....you were either poorly catechized or didn't pay attention.

I can say with 100 percent certainity that I have found Christ and no one is guaranteed eternal life. I do not believe once saved always saved.

Regarding forgiveness of sins....again you demonstrate that you do not understand Catholic teaching. If you ask for forgiveness of sins and you are not honest about it, intend to continue repeating the sin then it is NOT a valid confession. You can't fool God.

Christ established the Catholic Church, the keys were given to Peter. The Church has apostolic succession. The Bible says that Peter was given the authority to "bind and loose". Peter was the first Pope.

I don't understand your comment about Holy Communion. Christ said eat this, this is my body....Christ knew he shocked them...he knew they took him literally and he did not say...oh wait I meant symbolically.....he said drink this, eat this.....it was a command.

I strongly recommend you re-read the Catechism or check out one of the many websites that are very clear and easy to understand, in regards to Catholic teachings.

LaRae

I was not saved out of the Catholic church, my views before I was saved were a mix of liberal and conservative. Basically, I thought that the Bible was the Word of God and therefore authoritive and innerrant (a conservative view) but I though that anybody who believed that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins was saved (a liberal view). During my first year at University I start to study the Bible with a group which has evangelical doctrine but whose practices are sometimes questionable, but that entire time I still did not have anything against the Catholic church (nor did the guy I was studying with even though he had been raised Catholic and knew that he was dead while and had not been born again in the Catholic church) and when I would go home to my mother's house I would attend Catholic church (it's boring but 45 minutes isn't that long once you get older). While attending this group I started going to another group call the International Churches of Christ, they teach things like you must be a disciple (hence part of their church) and must be baptized by their church to be saved. Basically they challenged my liberal views which were lacking in Bible knowledge. I remembered that the Bible says that we are saved by faith but I didn't know where to find it.

Then I found this:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and (1) believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and (2) does not come into judgment, but has (3) passed out of death into life. - John 5:24 NASB

But I still was not born again nor was I against the Catholic church. There is a big difference between finding a verse and actually putting your trust in Christ.

Torn by confusion between what I had been taught and the views brought forth by the ICC, I called out to God to save me (see Romans 10), to bring me to him. And reading Romans 3, I expierenced joy, for the first time in my life, in knowing that yes, I fall short of God's glory and am not good enough to get into heaven, but God loved me so much that He gave the life of His only Son that I might have forgiveness of sins and new life in Christ.

But now apart from the Law (30) the righteousness of God has been manifested, being (31) witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the (32) righteousness of God through (33) faith (34) in Jesus Christ for (35) all those who believe; for (36) there is no distinction;
23 for all (37) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift (38) by His grace through (39) the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as (40) a propitiation (41) in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the (42) forbearance of God He (43) passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26 NASB

That's when I was born again by the Holy Spirit, but I still wasn't against the Catholic church because I figured that they taught the Bible so they must believe that trust in Christ was the only way to be saved. However as time went on, I heard the testimonies of ex-Catholic older than myself that, about how they were dead in the sins when they were Catholic, at the time, being much younger than they, I figured that the Catholic church today had changed since my experiences were different (except for not being born again). But when I read in the Catechism of the Catholic church that the Catholic church believes that water baptism is necessary for salvation (the main point of disagreement that I had had with the ICC), I knew that the Catholic church was dead, it did not know Christ who it claims to represent. Then I began to realized just how much my life had changed since that day when I first experienced joy, my heart had been fundamentally changed, I was no longer a slave to sin as I had been while I was Catholic and my life actually had meaning. I was a new creature in Christ. Christ has brought such joy and meaning to my life, that I will never give Him up, I have this joy because I trusted in Christ alone, I have been set free because I trusted in Christ alone, I live because I trust in Christ alone. We can argue about doctrine till the end of time, but because I know Christ, I am no-longer searching for truth, for I know with certainty that I have found the way, the truth and the life because I have found Christ.

So my question to you is, can you say with certainty that you have found Christ, that you are a new creation in Christ and that you have eternal life?

Now to deal with a couple other points:

"The Bible is clear about Priests forgiving sins."

That's strange because the Bible does not mention a new testament priesthood separate from the body of believers in Christ. It also says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. In the past when Catholic have been asked, "what if the priest declares the sin forgiven of somebody who isn't really sorry, is the sin still forgiven?" and the answer given is that yes the sin is still forgiven because the priest said so. This means that God who is the most high judge who knows all our hearts is unemployed and a good actor can get into heaven. The Bible does not agree with this position.

"Again, how can you turn your back on the Real Presence and go to a Church that doesn't believe?"

You cannot remember something that is happening. If something is happening it is being experienced, not remembered.

24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same way He took (1) the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the (2) new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death (3) until He comes. - 1 Corinthians 11:24-26

Jesus was not saying that people would eat his physical body and blood (which would be canabalism) anymore than he was telling Nicodemus to get back into his mother's uterus

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

First off the Catholic Church teaches that Baptism of desire is valid. Water is not an absolute. Like I mentioned already....you were either poorly catechized or didn't pay attention.

I can say with 100 percent certainity that I have found Christ and no one is guaranteed eternal life. I do not believe once saved always saved.

Regarding forgiveness of sins....again you demonstrate that you do not understand Catholic teaching. If you ask for forgiveness of sins and you are not honest about it, intend to continue repeating the sin then it is NOT a valid confession. You can't fool God.

Christ established the Catholic Church, the keys were given to Peter. The Church has apostolic succession. The Bible says that Peter was given the authority to "bind and loose". Peter was the first Pope.

I don't understand your comment about Holy Communion. Christ said eat this, this is my body....Christ knew he shocked them...he knew they took him literally and he did not say...oh wait I meant symbolically.....he said drink this, eat this.....it was a command.

I strongly recommend you re-read the Catechism or check out one of the many websites that are very clear and easy to understand, in regards to Catholic teachings.

LaRae

You need to stop posting people's posts as part of your posts. If you want to quote, use the quote button. I guess UncleRay was either poorly catechized or didn't pay attention too. Most Catholic are ignorant of a lot of Catholic beliefs.

You claim to know with certainity that you have found Christ, yet your claim is mostlikely not based on whether or not you actually know him but instead based on you telling yourself you're a good Catholic so you must have found him.

These things I have written to you who (2) believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have (3) eternal life. - 1 John 5:13 NASB

Know that you have eternal life, not you will get it if you're a good Catholic but if you truly trust in Christ the Son of God you have eternal because you are in Christ who died once and will not die again.

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

I was not raised Catholic, I am an adult convert. I KNOW the other side and I reject it.

No man knows if he has guaranteed salvation. We are at the mercy of God. What happens when we die in sin? Make no mistake, it is most likely we all die with some sort of sin.

Also I notice you have no comment about what I had to say about Baptism of Desire or a Valid Confession. What I said certainly corrects your former understanding I would hope.

Again, I would hope that you search out a Catechism or one of the many websites that offer true Catholic teaching. It is no surprise that some Catholics do not understand what the Church teaches....look at yourself.

I feel very sad that you have rejected the Real Presence and now walk away from the Church. I could never do it.

LaRae

You claim to know with certainity that you have found Christ, yet your claim is mostlikely not based on whether or not you actually know him but instead based on you telling yourself you're a good Catholic so you must have found him.

These things I have written to you who (2) believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have (3) eternal life. - 1 John 5:13 NASB

Know that you have eternal life, not you will get it if you're a good Catholic but if you truly trust in Christ the Son of God you have eternal because you are in Christ who died once and will not die again.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Hi Alex -

There is but one Church. It is called "universal". In the Greek, this word is "katholicos". From thence do we get the word Catholic. So actually, if I wanted to, I could just say that we belong to the Universal Church.

Is the Church universal? St. Vincent of Lerins said this "The Catholic Faith is that which has been believed everywhere, by all people, at all times."

This cannot be said of Protestantism. The earliest Protestant doctrines we see come up 1500 years AFTER the Church was established. Therefore, their doctrines cannot be considered "universal" as such.

Catholic doctrines can be traced back to the first century. We have writings of the Early Fathers and Ante Nicene Fathers which clarify for us that the doctrines which were taught now were taught back then. Oh, some of them were in a very germinal form, but they were there, and simply needed to grow and reach maturity.

Jesus established a Church. He said He would build it upon St. Peter. He gave the apostles authority to bind and loose sins. As the first bishops, they ruled over all the parishes which sprung up from the evangelizing of the world with the Good News. Just look at St. Paul if you don't beleive it. He writes to all the parishes and gives them orders which he expects to be obeyed. By what right does he do that? By the right of being a bishop in the Church and having the oversight of these parishes. There is no such thing as independent and autonomous assemblies who answer to no one but their own leader as you find in Fundamentalism and certain brands of Anabaptistry.

As for the debate, well, I haven't been around myself for a couple of weeks. Been busy elsewhere. Refresh my memory as to what we were going to discuss.

Hope you are well and experiencing much of God's blessing in your life.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:

I was not raised Catholic, I am an adult convert. I KNOW the other side and I reject it.

You reject Christ and in Him life?

No man knows if he has guaranteed salvation. We are at the mercy of God. What happens when we die in sin? Make no mistake, it is most likely we all die with some sort of sin.

Unlike you, I trust in the certainty of God's promises, there is no uncertainty in God's promises. The mercy of God is found in Christ died for our sin.

Also I notice you have no comment about what I had to say about Baptism of Desire or a Valid Confession. What I said certainly corrects your former understanding I would hope.

I am familiar with "Baptism of Desire", and "Baptism of Blood", they are both attempts to patch the false doctrine of the Catholic church which has holes, hence the need for the Catholic church to invent new kinds of baptism. It still stands that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works and thus baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Again, I would hope that you search out a Catechism or one of the many websites that offer true Catholic teaching. It is no surprise that some Catholics do not understand what the Church teaches....look at yourself.

As I mentioned before, having found Christ, I have no need to search. As for your statement that it is no surprise that some Catholics do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches, I agree, the Catholic church isn't quite so unified in belief and as good as a teacher that it thinks it is. The whole point of Catholic tradition is supposed to be to explain to us what is in Scripture and the things which are missing from Scripture but supposedly still valid. Instead we just get even more confusion. The RCC is an incompetent teacher and so it is not wise to trust in it.

I feel very sad that you have rejected the Real Presence and now walk away from the Church. I could never do it.

Having found Christ, I joyfully reject the RCC because Christ is not in it.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Torn by confusion between what I had been taught and the views brought forth by the ICC, I called out to God to save me (see Romans 10), to bring me to him. And reading Romans 3, I expierenced joy, for the first time in my life, in knowing that yes, I fall short of God's glory and am not good enough to get into heaven, but God loved me so much that He gave the life of His only Son that I might have forgiveness of sins and new life in Christ.

Too bad you didn't read a little further in Romans.

"You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." Romans 11:19-21

Perhaps you wouldn't have been so quick to run off and join a "once saved, always saved" church. Perhaps you might have considered that if they can get the OSAS part wrong, they might get some other things wrong too.

But hey, that's just me.

 

[LaRae]

Dual,

What's with the straw man you are trying to create? I expect better of you. Trying to imply I reject Christ is pretty low. I reject the false doctrine(s) outside the Catholic Church...but then you knew what I meant the first time.

You did not address what happens when we die in sin.

If you are familiar with Baptism of Desire then why did you state that Catholics require water baptism and that's how you knew they were a dead church?

Do you try to imply that Catholics think works will save them?

In order for someone to be taught they have to be willing to learn. In some cases maybe they could of had a better teacher...however that doesn't excuse a person's obligation to seek the truth.

In turning your back on the Church you have rejected Christ. I'm sure this is not what you want to hear ....I'm afraid it will be hard for you to plead invincible ignorance. May God show you Mercy.

Again I exhort you to search out the truth of the Church (since by what you have said here clearly shows you are misinformed about at least some Church teachings).

LaRae

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Dual,

What's with the straw man you are trying to create? I expect better of you. Trying to imply I reject Christ is pretty low. I reject the false doctrine(s) outside the Catholic Church...but then you knew what I meant the first time.

You did not address what happens when we die in sin.

If you are familiar with Baptism of Desire then why did you state that Catholics require water baptism and that's how you knew they were a dead church?

Do you try to imply that Catholics think works will save them?

In order for someone to be taught they have to be willing to learn. In some cases maybe they could of had a better teacher...however that doesn't excuse a person's obligation to seek the truth.

In turning your back on the Church you have rejected Christ. I'm sure this is not what you want to hear ....I'm afraid it will be hard for you to plead invincible ignorance. May God show you Mercy.

Again I exhort you to search out the truth of the Church (since by what you have said here clearly shows you are misinformed about at least some Church teachings).

LaRae

You never specified what the other side was, I made a suggestion in the form of a question.

If you die in sin, you were never in Christ, therefore you go to hell.

Baptism of desire and blood are just exceptions to the Catholic rule. The point is, if you don't do it (or qualify for the exception), then according to the RCC, you don't get into heaven. That shows that the RCC has no understanding of the finished work of Christ. Eternal life is a free gift, you simply need to accept it, not be baptized to merit it. According to the RCC, if you do not do that work, you don't get in, and also if you aren't good enough, you don't get in, therefore the RCC teaches salvation by what you do because your works affect whether or not you are saved.

When one has found the truth, one no longer to needs to seek for it.

Further proof that the Catholic church is dead is that if in turning away from the teachings of the Catholic church I find Christ, the Catholic church does not have Christ. Invincible ignorancy is another lie of the Catholic church (on a side note can you profide evidence for "Invincible ignorance" from something which in your opinion qualifies as an infallible source?) as shown by Romans 10:

6 But (7) the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "(8) DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE (9) ABYSS?' (that is, to (10) bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "(11) THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that (12) if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (13) believe in your heart that (14) God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "(15) WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For (16) there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is (17) Lord of (18) all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "(19) WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him (20) whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without (21) a preacher? - Romans 10:6-14 NASB

Notice verse 14 in particular.

As I already mentioned, having found Christ, I have no reason to keep searching for Him. But given the confusion of the teachings of the Catholic church, I have yet another reason not to bother.

 

[CatholicConvert]

As I already mentioned, having found Christ, I have no reason to keep searching for Him. But given the confusion of the teachings of the Catholic church, I have yet another reason not to bother

Actually, as I studied the Catholic Faith AND Holy Orthodoxy (I am Orthodox in communion with Rome, NOT Roman Catholic), I found a perfect synthesis for those very knotty problems which Protestantism could not solve for me.

I also found answers I didn't expect to find - like why the Blessed Virgin is indeed the Queen of Heaven.

The key is the covenant of God. If you ever get a good handle on the covenant, you will see it all come together.

As for your getting "saved" in some assembly outside of the Catholic Church, all I can say is that you had a conversion experience which deepened and made real your faith which was given to you as a gift in your baptism. Unfortunately, this conversion experience did not happen in the Church and those who saw it took pains to convince you that this proved that the Catholic Church is false.

Who knows. Given a couple of years, you may well return to the Church. Many, many reverts have come back in after having their conversion experience in some non Catholic assembly. When they return, the are better Catholics and better able to defend the Faith.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[Dualhunter]

In Him, you also, after listening to (35) the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were (36) sealed in Him with (37) the Holy Spirit of promise, - Ephesians 1:13 NASB

I was sealed in Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, when I first trust in Christ alone, not when I was baptized as an infant.