Women, Stop Submitting to Men

[gb93433]

Those of us who hold to so-called “traditional gender roles” are often assumed to believe that women should submit to men. This isn’t true.

Indeed, a primary problem in our culture and in our churches isn’t that women aren’t submissive enough to men, but instead that they are far too submissive.

First of all, it just isn’t so that women are called to submit while men are not. In Scripture, every creature is called to submit, often in different ways and at different times. Children are to submit to their parents, although this is certainly a different sort of submission than that envisioned for marriage.

Church members are to submit to faithful pastors (Heb. 13:17). All of us are to submit to the governing authorities (Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Pet. 2:13-17). Of course, we are all to submit, as creatures, to our God (Jas. 4:7).


The rest of the story is at http://www.churchleaders.com/pastor...er&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily-Update

 

[annsni]

Amen! The order I submit to:

* Jesus Christ

* My husband

* My boss (for work related things only)

* My pastor (who happens to be my boss as well- but only in matters of church issues and discipline)

Oh - and in there are police on civil matters and then anyone else in other situations where there needs to be authority (for example, if I'm at the yacht club and the manager states that I cannot go into the dining room in jeans, I must submit to that authority but he cannot tell me to go do his laundry LOL)

 

[gb93433]

Amen! The order I submit to:

* Jesus Christ

* My husband

* My boss (for work related things only)

* My pastor (who happens to be my boss as well- but only in matters of church issues and discipline)

Oh - and in there are police on civil matters and then anyone else in other situations where there needs to be authority (for example, if I'm at the yacht club and the manager states that I cannot go into the dining room in jeans, I must submit to that authority but he cannot tell me to go do his laundry LOL)

I would think that at times your children too. If not now, then later, because they will take you where you do always wish to go.

 

[agedman]

Amen! The order I submit to:

* Jesus Christ

* My husband

* My boss (for work related things only)

* My pastor (who happens to be my boss as well- but only in matters of church issues and discipline)

Oh - and in there are police on civil matters and then anyone else in other situations where there needs to be authority (for example, if I'm at the yacht club and the manager states that I cannot go into the dining room in jeans, I must submit to that authority but he cannot tell me to go do his laundry LOL)

Annsni,

This is a great list!!!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I would like to add a caution all who read this post in the matter of submission to a spiritual leader. One which the link in the OP actually states.

Specifically, it is not certain that one should be submissive to the pastor outside of the employment.

Husband and wife are a team.

Modern history records there has been more than one church where the pastor, or some spiritual leader, came between the wife and husband.

Some of the most sad stories I ever heard come from the broken hearts of a man and wife when a person of charismatic aura, powerful, well-groomed, confident, "man of god" is looked to as the authority.

Women seem to be highly attracted to that type, and must guard their heart, home, and devotion to their husband. Especially if the husband is of the common labor, or even of limited education.

Husbands must also wisely put up visible and well seen guards to thwart the "silly women" who uses their well practiced cunning to not only attract the attention but to tease the man into all manner of evil.

 

[gb93433]

Women seem to be highly attracted to that type, and must guard their heart, home, and devotion to their husband. Especially if the husband is of the common labor, or even of limited education.

Husbands must also wisely put up visible and well seen guards to thwart the "silly women" who uses their well practiced cunning to not only attract the attention but to tease the man into all manner of evil.

In the early church a pastor did not deal directly with women. The women did. This helps to prevent immorality in a congregation.

 

[jaigner]

I'll state my take very succinctly:

Women, practice mutual submission with your spouse. Your husband is not any more your authority than you are his.

 

[Christos doulos]

So many do not understand what submission actually means. Only then can we understand how the husband and the wife are conformed to the image of Christ through submission.

 

[annsni]

I'll state my take very succinctly:

Women, practice mutual submission with your spouse. Your husband is not any more your authority than you are his.

I will disagree with this strongly since the Word of God disagrees as well.

 

[HAMel]

Those of us who hold to so-called “traditional gender roles” are often assumed to believe that women should submit to men. This isn’t true.

gb93433, "Women's Lib"! It started back in the 1970's.

My wife "submits" to me while I "submit" to her. After all the smoke clears however I'm the one to be held accountable for exercising my responsibilities as the husband/father while she will be held accountable for exercising her responsibilities as the wife and mother.

 

[jaigner]

I will disagree with this strongly since the Word of God disagrees as well.

Ann, Ann, Ann. I know you disagree, and that is your own prerogative. I have a lot of respect for you, though, because you show a great deal of solid thought and study in your conclusions. That is great. We can disagree on this issue and, pardon me if I'm cliche, but rejoice in the fact we are brother and sister in Christ. When it comes to essentials of the Christian faith, I'm probably right with you 100%.

The problem with your dogmatism on this subject isn't so much that you disagree, but it's the fact that you set yourself apart from others who are just as committed and scholarly as you and I are. Heck, I grew up in a tradition and family that proclaimed your own position. My particular view on male headship, which I arrived at a number of years ago, lines up with the scholarship of such great theologians and scholars as N.T. Wright, Stanley Grenz, Gordon Fee, William Webb, Gilbert Bilezikian, Greg Boyd, Curtiss Paul DeYoung, Scot McKnight, Roger Olson, Ron Sider, and many, many others. It is a biblical position, an orthodox position, an evangelical position, and a just position.

You can disagree, but please don't make me out to be something I'm not, like a little leprechaun with a Bible in one hand and scissors in the other.

 

[annsni]

Ann, Ann, Ann. I know you disagree, and that is your own prerogative. I have a lot of respect for you, though, because you show a great deal of solid thought and study in your conclusions. That is great. We can disagree on this issue and, pardon me if I'm cliche, but rejoice in the fact we are brother and sister in Christ. When it comes to essentials of the Christian faith, I'm probably right with you 100%.

The problem with your dogmatism on this subject isn't so much that you disagree, but it's the fact that you set yourself apart from others who are just as committed and scholarly as you and I are. Heck, I grew up in a tradition and family that proclaimed your own position. My particular view on male headship, which I arrived at a number of years ago, lines up with the scholarship of such great theologians and scholars as N.T. Wright, Stanley Grenz, Gordon Fee, William Webb, Gilbert Bilezikian, Greg Boyd, Curtiss Paul DeYoung, Scot McKnight, Roger Olson, Ron Sider, and many, many others. It is a biblical position, an orthodox position, an evangelical position, and a just position.

You can disagree, but please don't make me out to be something I'm not, like a little leprechaun with a Bible in one hand and scissors in the other.

The issue is that we can't both be right, can we? We also see clearly in Scripture that there is an authority structure in all that God created. We see it in the church and we see it in the man/woman marriage relationship. I do see that we submit to one another but then we as women are given an additional command to submit to our husbands. Husbands are not commanded to submit to their wives. So there must be something different. I do believe that the Scripture is quite clear in this matter and I do think that those who have come to different conclusions - including those you mentioned - are completely wrong.

But yes, I also count you as a brother in Christ and I rejoice that we will both stand before the Throne, covered by the blood of the Lamb - and then we'll know what God wanted from us.

 

[mandym]

Sometimes I get the feeling that some people on this board truly believe that when they post they have established some truth that is set in stone. And it seems some are looking to gain influence in the Christian community by posting their obsessions on the internet.

This is just a forum for personal use. Making false claims of orthodoxy does not make it anymore true on this forum or anywhere on the internet. The theological left has been deluding themselves for years in trying to set them selves up as believable and common.

Throwing terms around like "Evangelical" and "Orthodox" does nothing to create truth. And those who are actually these things feels no need to wip them out like a six shooter in a gun fight. We just are and already know it.

 

[agedman]

I'm probably right with you 100%.

You can disagree, but please don't make me out to be something I'm not, like a little leprechaun with a Bible in one hand and scissors in the other.

Being Irish (but not leprechaun other than my pointy ears ) I have visited with the King and He states this.

Ann is correct in her view of wife submission to husband and to God.


Submission to God is primary:

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Submission and love to the spouse:

"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves his wife loves himself. "

There is nothing to suggest submission to a pastoral authority.

 

[DaChaser1]

The issue is that we can't both be right, can we? We also see clearly in Scripture that there is an authority structure in all that God created. We see it in the church and we see it in the man/woman marriage relationship. I do see that we submit to one another but then we as women are given an additional command to submit to our husbands. Husbands are not commanded to submit to their wives. So there must be something different. I do believe that the Scripture is quite clear in this matter and I do think that those who have come to different conclusions - including those you mentioned - are completely wrong.

But yes, I also count you as a brother in Christ and I rejoice that we will both stand before the Throne, covered by the blood of the Lamb - and then we'll know what God wanted from us.

Think that we have to realise that though it might sound tough to modern ears...

That the Apostle Paul WAS inpired by God, as was Peter, and BOTh referenced the roles/positions of male to females!

 

[DaChaser1]

I'll state my take very succinctly:

Women, practice mutual submission with your spouse. Your husband is not any more your authority than you are his.

we are commanded to obey the example of the trinity themselves in this area!

Within godhead, all 3 are equals, but each takes on subordination roles!

Jesus and HS equal to the father in essense/pershood, but both of the submit to Him as their head, their "Boss!"

 

[gb93433]

My wife "submits" to me while I "submit" to her. After all the smoke clears however I'm the one to be held accountable for exercising my responsibilities as the husband/father while she will be held accountable for exercising her responsibilities as the wife and mother.

That is the way I see it too. The problem is that both are needed. It is not like working for a boss whose business may fail because he fails to enlist the help and expertise of his employees.

 

[DaChaser1]

That is the way I see it too. The problem is that both are needed. It is not like working for a boss whose business may fail because he fails to enlist the help and expertise of his employees.

bottom line is that the man is the head of his wife/household , and that she needs to submit to her husband, but he is commanded to be worthy of that, as to be "like Christ" to how he relates to her!

 

[gb93433]

The issue is that we can't both be right, can we?

Dad is law and mom is like a nursing mother. There is a huge difference in their focus and care.

We also see clearly in Scripture that there is an authority structure in all that God created. We see it in the church and we see it in the man/woman marriage relationship. I do see that we submit to one another but then we as women are given an additional command to submit to our husbands. Husbands are not commanded to submit to their wives. So there must be something different.

Eph. 5:21, "and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ." That verse does not have a verb and is a transition between the previous passage and the following passage.

Submission means that we are not subservient but that we yield to the other person. Wives love and help strengthen their husbands through submission. Husband love and strengthen their wives through love. Love is a form of submission. How can a man love his wife if he is not patient with her when he needs to be? Love puts the other person above themself.

 

[gb93433]

bottom line is that the man is the head of his wife/household , and that she needs to submit to her husband, but he is commanded to be worthy of that, as to be "like Christ" to how he relates to her!

The word for head can have many meanings such as the word "bat" does. In that case the head is the same word used as the head of a river. It is the source or starting point of a river. In society the husband is the stronger in society and he is her source of encouragement. In almost any society the men speak with a louder voice and tend to dominate society. Men can be tyrants or encouragers in society through their leadership and dominance. It is the same way in the home. Being the head is not so much about being in charge and the authority.

 

[Christos doulos]

I'll state my take very succinctly:

Women, practice mutual submission with your spouse. Your husband is not any more your authority than you are his.

My wife wanted to go to North Carolina to see someone, but I didn't want to go with her. She submitted to her husband and would not allow herself to be emotionally dependent on whether I went as she recognized only Christ not her husband fulfils all her needs.
I on the other hand prayed about it and submitted to God by going willingly and joyously with her to N.C. because the Holy Spirit was giving me yet another opportunity to be conformed to the image of Christ. I did not submit to my wife but to God. The bi-product of my submission resulted in her husband going with her.

Even though both she and I submitted. I was conformed to the image of Christ more than she was.

We are responsible for ourselves. Husband and wife's focus should always be on God and not each other. Even if the husband has never submitted not even once in the entirety of the marriage that is no excuse for the wife to not obey God by ceasing to submit, because he will have to answer God for not obeying.

The point of this exercise is to be conformed to the image and likeness of Jesus Christ. Is there anything more important?