Ok none of this addresses the op. Unless you have addressed the comparison made this is a non answer.
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World vs. Elect
- Thread starter mandym
- Start date
Ok none of this addresses the op. Unless you have addressed the comparison made this is a non answer.
The verses used in the op do not make your point
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
So why the difference in the two words? If Jesus in the second set of verses is speaking of the elect why did He not use that word like He did in the previous verses?
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Those are the elect, chosen out of your other word (world.) However Jesus is also concerned with the others of the world.
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, (The Elect) saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
When does this happen? See verse 16.
Now let me ask concerning the,"world."
Let say there was a baby born and it lived two days and died. Was it a part of the world? Yes. There is not an age of accountability in the word of God, but there is the resurrection of the dead. Did Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead to his previous physical life or some other kind of life? Would it have made a difference whether Lazarus had been dead one day or a hundred years?
The problem is we believe it is all about the here and now and us. What we do. We have got to make sure we save ourselves now while we can.
We should do this; Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man.
And let God our savior be just that.
BTW, no I am not faithful in always doing that. God forgive me.
Sure there is, in several places it is shown.
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
God did not punish the children of Israel when their parents sinned in the wilderness because they did not yet know good from evil. God allowed these children to enter the Promised Land while all the parents died.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
This verse shows that little children do not at first know between good and evil and therefore cannot make a choice between the two. This verse also refutes Total Inability because it shows that when a child matures and understands between good and evil he can refuse evil and choose good.
Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
These verses show several things. First, we were all made by God, we are not born children of the devil as many teach. Men become children of the devil by choice when they are mature enough to understand right from wrong and choose evil.
Second, God argues that it is JUST for him to spare Nineveh, and that he SHOULD spare Nineveh because there were 120,000 small children there who could not distinguish between their right hand and their left hand. They were no more guilty of sin than the many cattle that were also there.
Unfortunately...your post proves TOO much
1.) This fails to address the reality that anyone from any nation might at any time become a party to the promise if they so chose. One could become a Jewish Proselyte, and be heir to the promises of Salvation.
2.) If you want to take take this to logical Calvinistic conclusions...
...then you would be forced to argue that Everyone who was born a National Jew was then saved...
The Priest's atonement was for EVERYONE of God's elected people Israel yes? Thus, with this reasoning...There is no such thing as any Nationally born Jew in the OT who was not saved.
Off topic please get back on track.
I was simply answering a comment Percho made.
The "world" means all men. God is more intelligent than all of us and fully capable of properly expressing himself. If the Holy Spirit wanted to inspire men to say Jesus only died for "the elect" he could have easily done so. God doesn't need men to come along and explain his words for us.
But He did say that.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Has God reconciled the whole world (every person) to Himself?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die, ’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[Or in; also in verses 19 and 20] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself. ”
Matthew 24 :22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]
2 Corinthians 5 :
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Matthew 23 :
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”
Luke 11 :
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
Jesus came to save sinners not the righteous, and I am the worst. I am the heathen. I will not try to convince the whole world any differently, they have the same hope as me Jesus Christ. So turn to Him and listen and learn from Him, He is the only one with the words of eternal life. He made us who believe the messengers of it.
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die, ’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[Or in; also in verses 19 and 20] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself. ”
Matthew 24 :22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]
2 Corinthians 5 :
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Matthew 23 :
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”
Luke 11 :
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
Jesus came to save sinners not the righteous, and I am the worst. I am the heathen. I will not try to convince the whole world any differently, they have the same hope as me Jesus Christ. So turn to Him and listen and learn from Him, He is the only one with the words of eternal life. He made us who believe the messengers of it.
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:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::wavey:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately...your post proves TOO much
1.) This fails to address the reality that anyone from any nation might at any time become a party to the promise if they so chose. One could become a Jewish Proselyte, and be heir to the promises of Salvation.
Not at all. The fact remains that only Israel was atoned for by the work of the High Priest. The Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, etc. were not atoned for by the work of the High Priest.
Your contention that there was, in essence, an open invitation to the other nations is not so. Conversions to Israel from the surrounding nations were extremely rare. Even so, they did happen.
When one did become a member of Israel, eg. Rahab or Uriah the Hittite, they did not come claiming the work of the High Priest was universally made for them as a Canaanite or a Hittite, respectively. Instead they became a part of the covenant community and then--after becoming a member of the community--they were in the group who was atoned for by the work of the High Priest.
This is also not so. If you will remember, there are two groups within Old Testament Israel--those who are members of National Israel only and those who were members of National Israel and spiritual Israel.
Only those who trusted in Yahweh and His promises had his or her sins atoned for, and it was not, ultimately, on the basis of the blood of bulls or goats.
1 Kings 19:18 says, "Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (ESV) This tells us that there is indeed a distinction between ethnic Israel and Spiritual Israel and the difference between the two is God's purpose of election--He keeps a people for Himself, a faithful remnant.
After all, Paul does say, in Romans 9, "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel."
Salvation in Old Testament Israel was not a matter of ethnic identity. Rather, it is an issue of belief based in God's Sovereign Grace.
The Archangel
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men (The World) might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, (The Elect) saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
I re-posted this verse for I forgot to show the residue of men as. "the world."
mandym
Do you see why I considered these verses as applying to the OP?
Whereas the elect are the firstfruits of harvest, that is salvation the next harvest of salvation comes after the appearing of the Lord and I used as an example the two day old child who died to show how salvation could even come to that one through resurrection and judgement by Jesus the Christ and the Elect.
freeatlast
New Member
The answer is yes He has, but because not everyone will come to faith they will not realize it. It is like what took place under the OT in Lev. The blood of the atonement covered all Israel but not all were saved.
How can someone go to hell if they have been reconciled to God?
freeatlast
New Member
Amy The world/creation was reconciled. The individual has to receive it by faith. The bible says;
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Read in Lev. how the blood was sprinkled on the alter to cleanse the alter for the whole congregation. It covered all Israel, but not all Israel was saved. The sin of one man brought sin on all men. The righteous deed of One Man brought reconciliation on all, but all will not do what it takes to receive it which is faith.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
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It is always sad to glance through this sort of thread, where truth is presented and then attacked for 6 pages and counting. What does the Greek word translated "world" mean. Well different writers may use the word for differing things. But John used it consistently, so Calvinists bring up Paul.
Then we have the idea presented to take away the sin of the world means to take away each and every sin of each an every person that ever lived. Twaddle. Does John 1:29 say Jesus had taken away the sin of the world? Nope. Lets say the world refers to fallen mankind. So if Jesus took away the sin of one person, and that person was part of the world, then Jesus took away the sin of the world. The inability to read is a constant problem with Calvinist arguments.
Now lets look at Paul and 2 Corinthians 5:19 where God is reconciling the world to himself. Does this say the whole world is reconciled? Nope. So again, as God saves each person, they are part of the world of fallen mankind, and they receive the reconciliation provided by Christ when they are saved. Therefore, every salvation is an act of God reconciling the world to Himself. BTW, this means the world is separated from God, therefore it refers to fallen mankind in this verse.
Bottom line, John uses the word translated world consistently as referring to fallen mankind or the corrupt system of fallen mankind. Efforts to say John used the word differently are simply effort to rewrite scripture by redefining the meaning of the word. When Jesus died as the Lamb of God, He started taking away the sin of the world, starting with the thief on the next cross.
Then we have the idea presented to take away the sin of the world means to take away each and every sin of each an every person that ever lived. Twaddle. Does John 1:29 say Jesus had taken away the sin of the world? Nope. Lets say the world refers to fallen mankind. So if Jesus took away the sin of one person, and that person was part of the world, then Jesus took away the sin of the world. The inability to read is a constant problem with Calvinist arguments.
Now lets look at Paul and 2 Corinthians 5:19 where God is reconciling the world to himself. Does this say the whole world is reconciled? Nope. So again, as God saves each person, they are part of the world of fallen mankind, and they receive the reconciliation provided by Christ when they are saved. Therefore, every salvation is an act of God reconciling the world to Himself. BTW, this means the world is separated from God, therefore it refers to fallen mankind in this verse.
Bottom line, John uses the word translated world consistently as referring to fallen mankind or the corrupt system of fallen mankind. Efforts to say John used the word differently are simply effort to rewrite scripture by redefining the meaning of the word. When Jesus died as the Lamb of God, He started taking away the sin of the world, starting with the thief on the next cross.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Good question Amy.G. The answer is, as you well know, they can't!
Amy, Jesus gave his life for all men, but each man must personally receive it for it to profit him.
You will probably not see the connection with these verses.
Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Here Jesus compares the Holy Spirit to water as he also does in John chapter 7. Jesus told the Samaritan woman she must "ask" for this living water.
In verse 14 Jesus says whosoever (meaning anyone) "drinketh" of this water that Jesus shall give him will receive everlasting life.
The gift is there, it has been paid for, but a person must personally receive it. Suppose you were dying of thirst in the desert, and I approached and offered you a big glass of cool water. This water will not help you unless you personally drink it. Drinking here is just another word for "believe". It is to apply for or commit yourself to Jesus for salvation. That is what believe means, to depend upon or rely upon, to commit one's self to. It does not mean to simply believe a fact.
Jesus offers all men (whosoever) the water of life, but it will not profit a man unless he drinks (believes) it.