Would you stay? 3

[Davyboy]

We have shown scripture, explained scripture, and exhorted you all with Scripture. To no avail.

Well let’s take a look at previous post from them.

The comments regarding 2 Timothy 3:16. There were a total of four comments all from Jon. And they all were only 1-2 sentences long.
1“At that time, The OT Scriptures.”
2“What "Timothy was taught" was expounded from the OT, the Scriptures.“
3“What was learned? An expounded understanding of the Old Testament Scriptures”
4“Paul was teaching Timothy concerning Christ could be found in the OT“

So according to 2 Tim 3:16, Jon interprets the scriptures as the OT books. So disregarding anything of scriptures in the NT considering there wasn't a defined one at that time. (So literal meaning of 2 Tim 3:16 The OT Scriptures “the Jewish Bible including all the Septuagint books.)

I answered this but I don’t mind answering this understanding again in a different way.

So A LOT of the Epistles were not written even when Paul wrote Timothy and none of the books of the NT were part of the canon of the Bible. So he refers then to the Scriptures of the OT and if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much. Namely, that the Scriptures of the NT were not necessary for a rule of faith. So that means the Old Testament is the Christian’s sole rule of faith. So what Jon is saying “Sola Old Testament.” All right, go to your church and say that.

2 Timothy 3:16 doesn't prove the "Bible Alone". No matter how you spin it, it will not work for the "Bible Alone." If there's no comments soon regarding 2 Timothy, I move on down the line to the next verse that was used to support the "Bible Alone."

That’s it, no other comments or opinions about this verse in all the 3 threads.

 

[JonShaff]

Well let’s take a look at previous post from them.

The comments regarding 2 Timothy 3:16. There were a total of four comments all from Jon. And they all were only 1-2 sentences long.
1“At that time, The OT Scriptures.”
2“What "Timothy was taught" was expounded from the OT, the Scriptures.“
3“What was learned? An expounded understanding of the Old Testament Scriptures”
4“Paul was teaching Timothy concerning Christ could be found in the OT“

So according to 2 Tim 3:16, Jon interprets the scriptures as the OT books. So disregarding anything of scriptures in the NT considering there wasn't a defined one at that time. (So literal meaning of 2 Tim 3:16 The OT Scriptures “the Jewish Bible including all the Septuagint books.)

I answered this but I don’t mind answering this understanding again in a different way.

So A LOT of the Epistles were not written even when Paul wrote Timothy and none of the books of the NT were part of the canon of the Bible. So he refers then to the Scriptures of the OT and if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much. Namely, that the Scriptures of the NT were not necessary for a rule of faith. So that means the Old Testament is the Christian’s sole rule of faith. So what Jon is saying “Sola Old Testament.” All right, go to your church and say that.

2 Timothy 3:16 doesn't prove the "Bible Alone". No matter how you spin it, it will not work for the "Bible Alone." If there's no comments soon regarding 2 Timothy, I move on down the line to the next verse that was used to support the "Bible Alone."

That’s it, no other comments or opinions about this verse in all the 3 threads.

This is what the Lord Jesus says...

John 14
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

So then we know the Apostles spoke and wrote all that the Lord Jesus had told them. Peter speaks about Scripture being written even as the Apostles were living...

2 Peter 3:16
15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

2 Timothy 3:16 is talking about ALL Scripture. In it's context, we see it was primarily the OT.

So, the question would be, what teachings do you have that cannot be found in Scripture? What way do you validate sound doctrine? How do we know the "instructions of the Lord Jesus (Mat 28:20)"? Is there a source outside of Scripture?

2 Timothy 3:16 says we will find doctrine and instruction in righteousness in the Scriptures

Also,

Paul says to Timothy to preach the Word--the written Scriptures

2 Timothy 4
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

He tells Timothy to preach the Word in order to reprove, rebuke, exhort.

So, it would only make sense to take the Apostolic teachings of Christ, found in the Scriptures, and place ourselves under its Authority--as the Word of God. God's Word represents and Reveals Him--so as we place ourselves under the Authority of the Word of God, we are directly placed under the Authority of God himself.

 

[steaver]

WORD of GOD is Jesus Christ.

Amen! Is the word of God our final Authority?

WORD of GOD is NOT scripture alone....."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....

1Jo 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him"........
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Amen! Is the Word of God dwelling in us? Is the Word of God our final Authority?

 

[JonShaff]

See my last sentence from 2 posts ago. Gee whiz, isn't that clear enough for you? (Come on now friend, I thought you were a master at discerning written words).

Why can't you just answer the simple question? How can i be saved? How can i be forgiven? In your own words, what does it take for me to be forgiven?

 

[steaver]

Why can't you just answer the simple question? How can i be saved? How can i be forgiven? In your own words, what does it take for me to be forgiven?

Ouch! You will never get a Catholic to go there. It is too complicated for them to explain. As Paul said...
2Co 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

I would suggest you keep asking the question, each time they dodge is proving your position as the right one.

 

[steaver]

I never said that simply receiving Holy Communion gives me eternal life as the Christian way is much more than one thing, it encompasses many things as the Scriptures so clearly point out. Having faith, good works, prayer, and to me following the sacraments in order to live a holy and pleasing life to God.

Here you say "many things" gives you eternal life. Jon asked you how one is to be saved and you said, "See my last sentence from 2 posts ago", which is this...."We have no common doctrine, but only a belief that a man named Jesus Christ died and rose again to offer us forgiveness from our sins and thus eternal life."

So you can see that you have some explaining to do. Is it "many things" which gives you eternal life or is it faith in Jesus Christ alone, as you pointed towards your statement concerning Jesus Christ, His death, resurrection, forgiveness of sins, and thus eternal life?
.

 

[Adonia]

Here you say "many things" gives you eternal life. Jon asked you how one is to be saved and you said, "See my last sentence from 2 posts ago", which is this...."We have no common doctrine, but only a belief that a man named Jesus Christ died and rose again to offer us forgiveness from our sins and thus eternal life."

So you can see that you have some explaining to do. Is it "many things" which gives you eternal life or is it faith in Jesus Christ alone, as you pointed towards your statement concerning Jesus Christ, His death, resurrection, forgiveness of sins, and thus eternal life?
.

That's right, it's not faith alone it's the whole myriad of things the Scriptures tell us to do for eternal life - I said both. I was simply pointing out our only commonality is Christ, understand? Let's see, in answer to the man who asks Jesus how to gain eternal life, Jesus says to follow the Commandments and then to give away all his stuff and be homeless and poor like the Lord. In another place it says that people must be baptized to be saved. In another it's good works that must also be done, and then we will be judged accordingly. Jesus said we must eat His body and drink His blood, obviously pointing to Holy Communion. And that is just a few off the top of my head.

 

[Adonia]

Ouch! You will never get a Catholic to go there. It is too complicated for them to explain. As Paul said...
2Co 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

I would suggest you keep asking the question, each time they dodge is proving your position as the right one.

No, not too complicated to explain. The fact is our explanation will never satisfy you folks, even though we cite scripture after scripture to sustain it. So it comes down to the endless argument over and over again. I mentioned to our friend earlier that wine is the element that needs to be used over grape juice during the Lord's Supper and I was accused of being dogmatic. I was merely reporting the truth as revealed in the Holy Writ, a truth that cannot be explained away. See what I mean?

 

[JonShaff]

No, not too complicated to explain. The fact is our explanation will never satisfy you folks, even though we cite scripture after scripture to sustain it. So it comes down to the endless argument over and over again. I mentioned to our friend earlier that wine is the element that needs to be used over grape juice during the Lord's Supper and I was accused of being dogmatic. I was merely reporting the truth as revealed in the Holy Writ, a truth that cannot be explained away. See what I mean?

Grape juice is the fruit of the vine. So again, why so dogmatic about alcoholic beverages for communion?

 

[steaver]

That's right, it's not faith alone it's the whole myriad of things the Scriptures tell us to do for eternal life - I said both. I was simply pointing out our only commonality is Christ, understand? Let's see, in answer to the man who asks Jesus how to gain eternal life, Jesus says to follow the Commandments and then to give away all his stuff and be homeless and poor like the Lord. In another place it says that people must be baptized to be saved. In another it's good works that must also be done, and then we will be judged accordingly. Jesus said we must eat His body and drink His blood, obviously pointing to Holy Communion. And that is just a few off the top of my head.

Wow! That is quite a list to be saved. How do you believe you are doing with all of these, and of course all the others you did not list? Are you living in a homeless shelter right now?

 

[steaver]

I mentioned to our friend earlier that wine is the element that needs to be used over grape juice during the Lord's Supper and I was accused of being dogmatic. I was merely reporting the truth as revealed in the Holy Writ, a truth that cannot be explained away. See what I mean?

So the wine verses grape juice matters why? Does it have anything to do with one being saved or not? If not, then what is the consequences?

 

[steaver]

No, not too complicated to explain. The fact is our explanation will never satisfy you folks, even though we cite scripture after scripture to sustain it. So it comes down to the endless argument over and over again.

It's interesting how all of the Catholics on this board have a different belief concerning salvation. Utilyan has argued with me to no end that a person doesn't even need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, that one can reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God and still be saved through doing some good works, i.e. a "good" Muslim or a "good" Jew. No sacraments needed, no living as homeless. Then you come along and give a huge list of things that must be done to be saved. I thought you guys had a solid handle on what must be done and what does not need to be done for salvation? Isn't that why you keep arguing the RCC is needed for continuity in doctrine?

 

[Davyboy]

This is what the Lord Jesus says...

John 14
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

So then we know the Apostles spoke and wrote all that the Lord Jesus had told them. Peter speaks about Scripture being written even as the Apostles were living...

2 Peter 3:16
15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

2 Timothy 3:16 is talking about ALL Scripture. In it's context, we see it was primarily the OT.

So, the question would be, what teachings do you have that cannot be found in Scripture? What way do you validate sound doctrine? How do we know the "instructions of the Lord Jesus (Mat 28:20)"? Is there a source outside of Scripture?

2 Timothy 3:16 says we will find doctrine and instruction in righteousness in the Scriptures

Also,

Paul says to Timothy to preach the Word--the written Scriptures

2 Timothy 4
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

He tells Timothy to preach the Word in order to reprove, rebuke, exhort.

So, it would only make sense to take the Apostolic teachings of Christ, found in the Scriptures, and place ourselves under its Authority--as the Word of God. God's Word represents and Reveals Him--so as we place ourselves under the Authority of the Word of God, we are directly placed under the Authority of God himself.

John 14:It stating the Holy Spirit will help to translate.

2 Peter 3:16- It states Paul’s scriptures are hard to understand. Okay they are hard to understand. The “rest of the scriptures” is not the way you know the Bible now. (So the rest of scriptures in this verse could have included Acts of Paul and Thecla, the Gospel of Nicodemus and the Protevangelion: you don’t know) There was not one collection of books and definitely no official Canon at that time.

Here goes your “All” argument. The Greek word is Pasa which means “Every.” In the Bible, when Scripture is used in the singular it refers to an individual passage or book, not the whole Bible. So it reads “Every Scripture”

 

[JonShaff]

John 14:It stating the Holy Spirit will help to translate.

2 Peter 3:16- It states Paul’s scriptures are hard to understand. Okay they are hard to understand. The “rest of the scriptures” is not the way you know the Bible now. (So the rest of scriptures in this verse could have included Acts of Paul and Thecla, the Gospel of Nicodemus and the Protevangelion: you don’t know) There was not one collection of books and definitely no official Canon at that time.

Here goes your “All” argument. The Greek word is Pasa which means “Every.” In the Bible, when Scripture is used in the singular it refers to an individual passage or book, not the whole Bible. So it reads “Every Scripture”

Sorry, but i'm not even sure how this addresses what i typed.

 

[Adonia]

It's interesting how all of the Catholics on this board have a different belief concerning salvation. Utilyan has argued with me to no end that a person doesn't even need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, that one can reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God and still be saved through doing some good works, i.e. a "good" Muslim or a "good" Jew. No sacraments needed, no living as homeless. Then you come along and give a huge list of things that must be done to be saved. I thought you guys had a solid handle on what must be done and what does not need to be done for salvation? Isn't that why you keep arguing the RCC is needed for continuity in doctrine?

Come on, you know our brother Utilyan is a loose cannon. (LOL) But as I have myself put forth before as concerns others, maybe it's the "Christlike" life that Our Lord wanted men to follow. Sometimes Jesus speaks in ways that makes it difficult for us to get completely right, no? Maybe that is why he says that we are not to judge and to ultimately leave such things to God.

 

[Adonia]

So the wine verses grape juice matters why? Does it have anything to do with one being saved or not? If not, then what is the consequences?

No, these things most likely do not have much to do with salvation. I just like to point out the discrepancies between what some people here who claim that they have come up with the rock solid truth regarding the Scriptures, but when you see what they do in the course of their worship or believe regarding them, they are not so much in tune with them. And then here we are mere Catholics believing in, and responding to, exactly what the Scriptures say - and then we are told we are in the wrong, that we are somehow not in line with them.

 

[JonShaff]

No, these things most likely do not have much to do with salvation. .

Most likely do not? not Much to do with? (regarding wine in communion)

 

[steaver]

Maybe that is why he says that we are not to judge and to ultimately leave such things to God.

You are here defending the RCC as having all the correct and right answers to these matters of salvation. And yet you yourself have no idea what I must do to be saved.

 

[steaver]

Are there any Catholics here on this board who can answer a poor soul...What must I do to be saved?"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Are there any Catholics here on this board who can answer a poor soul...What must I do to be saved?"

Yes. Believe on the Lord Jesus and do what he says. I think, however, you are looking for something else. That is the simple teaching though.