Would you stay? 4

[atpollard]

Didn't Paul trust the God of Abraham? Why did Paul need to trust in Jesus Christ for his righteousness and Abraham did not?

Apparently Paul did not trust the God of Abraham, because he rejected the God of Abraham when he came in flesh and blood. Paul must have trusted in a GOD shaped idol that only had the outward appearance of the God of Abraham.

It was only when Paul actually met the God of Abraham on the road to Damascus that he abandoned his GOD shaped idol for the true God of Abraham ... Jesus Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So explain in your own words how this section of Scripture should be understood in light of justification and Christ's work on the cross, thanks!

There is a lot of theological ground there to cover with that question but I will attempt to put it succinctly. Mankind is a fallen race because of original sin. We are separated from God because of this. Jesus Christ sacrifice on the Cross provides a means by which we can be reunited with the Father (God) through forgiveness of our sins and cleansing us from original sin. Thus restoring us he also provides grace through the working of the Holy Spirit so that we can make those choices (which previously we were unable to because of the slavery of sin) which conforms us to the image of Jesus Christ himself as we are being sanctified. We can only come to God in faith in which we are actually responding to his gift of faith to us. However, faith which only believes and is not acted upon is not really faith. We are given a living faith which informs our thought which in turn conform our decisions to God's will and governs our actions. Thus we are uniting our will to God's will, doing what we were called to do. As Ephesians 2:10 states: " For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life."

 

[Yeshua1]

So, Yeshua1 I will here explain the Catholic view of Justification and so you are clear that I'm not stating my own opinion, I will use Catholic documents. "
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:" (CCC) You may ask how is justification or the righteousness of God is communicated through faith and baptism?" It is really a simple answer. God deals with us through covenants. Covenants often has an aspect whereby engages them through our actions. Such as circumcision in the Abrahamic covenant. You then ask is this scriptural. I would say certainly. Jesus (or Yeshua) says to Nicodemus " “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." Water being baptism. Baptism is the incorporation of the New Covenant. I have heard the argument that water means amniotic fluid. But I think that argument fails in that the Greek word for water in this case has never been used to describe that. Water means that Water. Water which you are baptized in. Also, note 1 Peter 3:20-21 "who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Further we view Justification as more than just one thing which I believe in your thinking (and I can be wrong about what you think) is merely a legal proclamation. Catholics believe that is certainly one aspect of Justification but it doesn't end there "The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion,...Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin...Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ...
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God...
Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom." (CCC) Therefore, if I were to break it down simply, not only does Jesus Christ's Justifying work coverts us to having faith in him but actively transform us into his image daily as we actively follow his will using our freedom as it was intended rather than abusing it which results in sin. Some Baptist hold to reformed theology and I think they would have a problem with the idea of freedom of will to act rightly. But I don't know if you are such a one. Maybe you hold a more Armenianist point of view.

we hold that God imputs the rightiousness of jesus towards us the moment we first beleived unto jesus, the RCC states that God infuses thru the 7 sacraments "saving grace".
First view is pauline Justification, second view is not!

 

[Yeshua1]

There is a lot of theological ground there to cover with that question but I will attempt to put it succinctly. Mankind is a fallen race because of original sin. We are separated from God because of this. Jesus Christ sacrifice on the Cross provides a means by which we can be reunited with the Father (God) through forgiveness of our sins and cleansing us from original sin. Thus restoring us he also provides grace through the working of the Holy Spirit so that we can make those choices (which previously we were unable to because of the slavery of sin) which conforms us to the image of Jesus Christ himself as we are being sanctified. We can only come to God in faith in which we are actually responding to his gift of faith to us. However, faith which only believes and is not acted upon is not really faith. We are given a living faith which informs our thought which in turn conform our decisions to God's will and governs our actions. Thus we are uniting our will to God's will, doing what we were called to do. As Ephesians 2:10 states: " For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life."

Per Rome, the sinner must ontain a spiritual state to allow God to merit them salvation ion the end though, correct?

 

[steaver]

Jesus is the Lamb of God. Since Passover is a type and a foreshadowing we must as ourselves what did the Jews do with the sacrificed lamb? Had it live with them, killed it, and then ate it in order that the angel of death would Passover them. They did this in the manner of getting ready to travel to the promised land. As when we must do when we partake in Jesus teaching in John 6.

"How can one eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood? Explain how this is to be obeyed by the believer in Christ, so he may be saved. This is your belief system, you should be able to explain it.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 

[Yeshua1]

"How can one eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood? Explain how this is to be obeyed by the believer in Christ, so he may be saved. This is your belief system, you should be able to explain it.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Is the power to save in the cross, or in the sacrament?

 

[Walter]

Is the power to save in the cross, or in the sacrament?

Was spittle needed to heal the man’s eyes? Did Jesus really need to make mud? No, He didn’t. But He chose to. Just as He chose to give us the Sacraments as a channel of His Grace

 

[Adonia]

Is the power to save in the cross, or in the sacrament?

They are the same, the shedding of His blood on the cross and then the ingestion of His body and His blood in a Holy Communion with Him which is the ultimate in worship. He gave the command, we obey - and you should too.

 

[steaver]

They are the same, the shedding of His blood on the cross and then the ingestion of His body and His blood in a Holy Communion with Him which is the ultimate in worship. He gave the command, we obey - and you should too.

Should do to be saved?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

"How can one eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood? Explain how this is to be obeyed by the believer in Christ, so he may be saved. This is your belief system, you should be able to explain it.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

So following this principle laid down in the Old Testament of the Passover Lamb being a foreshadowing of Jesus himself (As Jesus is now recognized as the Lamb of God as stated by John the Baptist), Jesus explains it pretty clearly himself in Matthew 26:26-28 " While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." The Jews and many of Jesus disciples certainly understood the correlation between the Passover Lamb and what Jesus was saying, which is why they had such a problem with it as we see in John 6:51-55 "
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink." The disciples were equally incensed John 6:60-61 "When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you?" We see that to many of his disciples it did which is why in John 6:66 many stopped following him. "Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him." I think that we forget that Jesus is God and created the universe by speaking it into existence as Genesis chapter 1 and John 1:3 states. Jesus was able to multiply food as we see earlier in John 6. So it is a simple matter for him to do as he has said.

 

[steaver]

So following this principle laid down in the Old Testament of the Passover Lamb being a foreshadowing of Jesus himself (As Jesus is now recognized as the Lamb of God as stated by John the Baptist), Jesus explains it pretty clearly himself in Matthew 26:26-28 " While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." The Jews and many of Jesus disciples certainly understood the correlation between the Passover Lamb and what Jesus was saying, which is why they had such a problem with it as we see in John 6:51-55 "
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink." The disciples were equally incensed John 6:60-61 "When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you?" We see that to many of his disciples it did which is why in John 6:66 many stopped following him. "Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him." I think that we forget that Jesus is God and created the universe by speaking it into existence as Genesis chapter 1 and John 1:3 states. Jesus was able to multiply food as we see earlier in John 6. So it is a simple matter for him to do as he has said.

All good stuff. But did you answer my question? How is the Christian to eat jesus’ flesh and drink His blood today so that he may have salvation? You gave this scripture in part when I asked how one is to be saved.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

All good stuff. But did you answer my question? How is the Christian to eat jesus’ flesh and drink His blood today so that he may have salvation? You gave this scripture in part when I asked how one is to be saved.

How much clearer do I need to be? How much clearer does scripture need to be? I am amazed that you are still asking the question?

All good stuff. But did you answer my question? How is the Christian to eat jesus’ flesh and drink His blood today so that he may have salvation? You gave this scripture in part when I asked how one is to be saved.

How much more clear can I be? How much more clear can the Scriptures be? I think I stated it clearly. We participate in the Lords supper as Jesus commanded.

 

[steaver]

How much clearer do I need to be? How much clearer does scripture need to be? I am amazed that you are still asking the question?

Well, you need to answer my question, it is a specific question. You recited the account Jesus had with His disciples 2000 years ago. I am asking you "How is the Christian to eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood TODAY so that he may have salvation?"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, you need to answer my question, it is a specific question. You recited the account Jesus had with His disciples 2000 years ago. I am asking you "How is the Christian to eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood TODAY so that he may have salvation?"

I just did. I'll even bold it in my quote. Why do you keep asking the same question over and over again when I clearly answer it? Is it an attempt to say I'm not answering you? Or were you expecting a different answer?

How much clearer do I need to be? How much clearer does scripture need to be? I am amazed that you are still asking the question?

How much more clear can I be? How much more clear can the Scriptures be? I think I stated it clearly. We participate in the Lords supper as Jesus commanded.

 

[steaver]

I just did. I'll even bold it in my quote. Why do you keep asking the same question over and over again when I clearly answer it? Is it an attempt to say I'm not answering you? Or were you expecting a different answer?

"We participate in the Lords supper as Jesus commanded."

Not sure if you don;t understand the question or if you are avoiding it, but I will attempt to make my question more clear if possible.

Define...... "participating in the Lord's supper". How is this performed today?

Maybe it will help if i tell you how I participate in the Lord's supper. About once a month in our service we take some broken crackers and some grape juice, we have someone read scripture reminding us of the Sacrifice Jesus made with His broken body and His shed blood for our sins, then we have someone lead us in prayer to bless the sacraments and then we partake together. On the front of our communion table is engraved the words "Do this in Remembrance of Me".

Now I asked you what your definition is, since you are a Catholic and believe this must be done in order to be saved. Is the way I and my church do it correct? Or is there another way? This is very important is it not, since you referenced it must be done in order to be saved (among other things). Another question would be how many times does it have to be done in order to be saved?

 

[JonShaff]

Was spittle needed to heal the man’s eyes? Did Jesus really need to make mud? No, He didn’t. But He chose to. Just as He chose to give us the Sacraments as a channel of His Grace

Heresy

 

[JonShaff]

They are the same, the shedding of His blood on the cross and then the ingestion of His body and His blood in a Holy Communion with Him which is the ultimate in worship. He gave the command, we obey - and you should too.

Blasphemy.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How much more clear can I be? How much more clear can the Scriptures be? I think I stated it clearly. We participate in the Lords supper as Jesus commanded.

Matthew26:26. 'And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to His disciples and said, "take, eat; this is My body."'
Just a quick question: do you take bread, or a wafer? The Greek word is artos. No need for unleavened bread, just bread. But before you criticize the crackers, why the wafer?

Also, Jesus gave it to His disciples and then commanded them to eat. He didn't pop it in their mouths.

FWIW, my church uses real bread. Not because it makes us holier than anyone else; it's just what we do. The important thing is to remember the Lord Jesus (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

"We participate in the Lords supper as Jesus commanded."

Not sure if you don;t understand the question or if you are avoiding it, but I will attempt to make my question more clear if possible.

Define...... "participating in the Lord's supper". How is this performed today?

I would think participating in the Lord's supper would be the clearest possible explanation. It is often called receiving communion.

 

[steaver]

I would think participating in the Lord's supper would be the clearest possible explanation. It is often called receiving communion.

So you believe I am obeying this command correctly?