Ye reject salvation by grace !

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Faith is explicitly stated to be "by grace"

I agree with that, but it is still a work. All the works of the New Creation are by Grace, done by Grace !

1 Cor 15:10

10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Believing is a work of the Mind, done through Grace Acts 18:27

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The word believed here is a action verb ! Thats a work !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The plain truth is that works are thought of in two senses, not simply one sense as some blindly believe. There are works of merit, thought of in the sense of 'that for the sake of' which nothing we do involving salvation are thought of in that sense of works. Then there are works thought of NOT in any meritorious sense whatsover, but are thought of in the sense of 'not without which', or as a 'condition' of salvtion, which faith is indeed a work in that sense.

For everything savedbymercy has wrong, at least he is able to understand the truth of faith being something involving the will of man, unlike a lot of the rest on this list. :thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



I agree with that, but it is still a work.

Paul says it is not a work - Rom. 4:1-6! He says "to him that WORKETH NOT but BELEIVETH"!

Paul places works in direct contrast to believeth! You don't!


You confuse Justification by faith with faithfulness by grace and the two are not the same.

Faith in justification is PASSIVE as it only RECEIVES and RESTS upon the promise and provision revealed in the gospel. It receives and rests upon what CHRIST DID FOR SINNERS.

Faith in sanctification is the response of LOVE that is ACTIVE in obedience to Christ commands and is what the believer DOES FOR CHRIST.

Hence, you confuse the role of faith in justification versus sanctification. The role of faith in justification is to receive and rest upon what CHRIST DID FOR SINNERS as the sole hope of eternal life, whereas, the role of faith in sanctification is what beleivers DO FOR CHRIST as loves response.

In sanctification it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do His good purpose and thus it is by grace as God is the cause and what you do is the effect.

In justification it is Christ that does all the works and faith simply receives and rests upon that finished work as its sole hope of salvation. The regenerated heart is a believing heart not due to our work but to God's creative work and that is why quickening is "through faith" not outside of faith or apart from faith. The term "saved" in Ephesians 2:8 refers to divine quickening as previously described in Ephesians 2:1,5 where we read:

hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Here Paul defines "quickened" as synonymous with "by grace ye are saved" and thus the same phrase "by grace are ye saved" in verse 8 is snynomous with quickened.

Afterwards this "saved by grace through faith" is defined again by the words "for we are His workmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus" thus again showing that "saved by grace through faith" is the creative work of God in regeneration when a NEW HEART is given (Ezek. 36:26) which by its very nature coming from God is a BELIEVING heart unlike the old heart.

Hence, there is no such thing as an unregenerated beleiver any more than there is such a thing as a regenerated unbeliever but the one who believes in Christ IS born of God (1 Jn. 5:1).

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Paul says it is not a work - Rom. 4:1-6!

No he did not, Paul never wrote once that beliving is not a work, because it is, it is something man does !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



No he did not, Paul never wrote once that beliving is not a work, because it is, it is something man does !

"To him that WORKETH NOT BUT believeth"

Do you have problems reading or problems comprehending what you read? apparently!

 

[savedbymercy]

"To him that WORKETH NOT BUT believeth"

Do you have problems reading or problems comprehending what you read? apparently!

So where do you see the words, Believing is not a work ? it is not there. Paul is making a contrast there, but the contrast is nullified if believing is an condition for man to perform to get saved ! Believing there is an act performed by the regenrated and saved man !

 

[The Biblicist]

So where do you see the words, Believing is not a work ? it is not there. Paul is making a contrast there, but the contrast is nullified if believing is an condition for man to perform to get saved ! Believing there is an act performed by the regenrated and saved man !

If you cannot see then you are blind! He is contrasting works with believing while you are INCLUDING believing with works!

It is the same as Paul was saying it is not black BUT white; but you are saying black is inclusive of white and/or that white is black and black is white:

"to him that WORKETH NOT" = to him that DOES NOT WORK

"BUT" - a term of contrast

Believeth"

It only takes elementary school level of reading and comprehension!

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

If you cannot see then you are blind!

No your blind, there is not a scripture in the bible that says believing is not a work !

 

[percho]

Faith is explicitly stated to be "by grace" and thus not a work and Paul repeatedly states Abraham was justified by faith and not by works:

Rom. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

It does not take a lot of reading skill to see that Paul plainly and repeatedly contrasts works with faith in the above text. Do you need to go back to elementary school and learn to read all over again????? That must be the case if you insist faith/beleiving is works:

"BUT TO HIM THAT WORKETH NOT BUT BELEIVETH....HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

What event in history took place that removed the elect of God from being under the law, (a schoolmaster)?

Rom. 3:21 YLT And now apart from law (from being under the law) hath the righteousness of God been manifested, (How? By the death of the Christ) testified to by the law and the prophets, (God will provide himself a lamb. The passover sacrificed for us, justifies.)

What does Paul call that moment in history that manifested being removed from being under the law.

Rom. 3:22 YLT and the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,

It was through the faith of Christ (Jesus dying on the cross) the Holy Spirit was given. That is where and how the Holy Spirit came to be shed on the elect, the firstfruits of the Spirit. God the Father Gal. 1:1 by the renewing of the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5 and Romans 8:11 raised Jesus from the dead, Gal.1:1. We then by the shed blood of Jesus, his death, his faith were justified (imputed with the righteousness of God) and we shall be (by resurrection/instant change) saved by his (resurrected) life.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

He went away, died, obedience of faith, therefore the Father by grace through the faith of Jesus raised him from the dead, the gift of God exalted Jesus on high and sent the Holy Spirit through Jesus his Son.

Why did Paul believe this? Because Jesus the Son of God himself called him?
Why did Abraham believe? Because God called him and through the faith to come, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, God imputed the righteousness of God to Abraham.

The sheep of God.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

That is why Paul says, Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Jesus is out faith. He is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

 

[steaver]

If you cannot see then you are blind! He is contrasting works with believing while you are INCLUDING believing with works!

It is the same as Paul was saying it is not black BUT white; but you are saying black is inclusive of white and/or that white is black and black is white:

"to him that WORKETH NOT" = to him that DOES NOT WORK

"BUT" - a term of contrast

Believeth"

It only takes elementary school level of reading and comprehension!

Do you see that sun up in the sky. No you don't, it's not really there :sleep:

I don't think it is a matter of blindness but rather a matter of flat out disobedience to God. If he were blind, he would not have this sin. Yet he says he sees and continues to not believe.

 

[Yeshua1]

Even if Human beings failed to reach the goals and purposes of God, the originial intention and plan of God was to expand His Realm by having many sons like the Only Begotten Son ( Heb 2:10)

You can read Psalm 82:6 and John 10:35.

God created Adam in His likeness. and that's why God calls the Believers " Ye are gods, and all of you are sons of Elion (the Most High) " ( Psalm 82:6)

God didn't predestine Adolf Hitler to kill 6 millions of Jews. God didn't predestine 99% of the people not to believe in Jesus disobeying His own commandments.

God never predestined Israel to be rebellious against God and to worship idols.

If any God had predestined 99% of the people not to believe in Jesus and to go to the Hell, that God must go to the Hell too!

Image of God pertaining to spiritual state, awareness/communion withGod, knowing himself as an independent being...

NOT that God 'cloned" little gods, as that is word of faith heresy 101!

 

[savedbymercy]

What event in history took place that removed the elect of God from being under the law, (a schoolmaster)?

They were under it as a schoolmaster, but the Law has never condemned the Elect, for even the OT Elect knew they were Justified by the Blood of Christ, that would be shed. Rom 3:24-25

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

In other words, they had been given Faith to understand that they were Justified freely through the redemption in Christ's Blood !

 

[Yeshua1]

Were the Elect already born in a state no longer sinners, but reconciled/justified back to God then?

Or were they never for a moment not reconciled/justified?

 

[DHK]

the bib
No your blind, there is not a scripture in the bible that says believing is not a work !

However there are many examples, both Biblical and otherwise.

1. Samson prayed. (work)
2. Samson prayed in faith (not work), that God would give him the strength to push apart the two great pillars (a work) of that massive building holding all those Philistines. In that one act of faith (no work) more Philistines were killed than in his entire lifetime.
3. I believe (have faith) that this account is true (no work involved).

3. Suppose, I believe that the planet Pluto is inhabited by little green men who eat green cheese for their diet, and will look kindly on you if you also eat green cheese. They might even enhance your powers to think intellectually if you believe they exist and eat green cheese every day believing them.
Do you believe or disbelieve? Why or why not?
First if you believe it will be blind faith which takes no work.
Second if you believe according to knowledge then you will take the time to research the matter out which is work, and after that occurs you will reject it. Belief or non-belief is not the work. Finding out what the belief is based on is work.

Our faith is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. We accept it as fact. We already know the facts of the gospel. We have done the work of finding it out. Now we simply accept it by faith (no work involved). The work was done beforehand.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

savedbymercy: there is not a scripture in the bible that says believing is not a work !

HP: In that you are indeed correct. :thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

HP: In that you are indeed correct. :thumbs:

Nor are there ANY verses to support that God can save apart from the sinner excercising faith towards messiah Yeshua and thus get saved!

 

[percho]

Nor are there ANY verses to support that God can save apart from the sinner excercising faith towards messiah Yeshua and thus get saved!

For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

For the new covenant to apply to a man because of something he did or even had to believe from within himself would be for that man to have participated in his being born again. It would be as if he had impregnated himself to be born.

As you had nothing, zilch, to do with your natural birth you will have nothing, zilch, to do with your spiritual birth.

 

[Eliyahu]

Image of God pertaining to spiritual state, awareness/communion withGod, knowing himself as an independent being...

NOT that God 'cloned" little gods, as that is word of faith heresy 101!

You don't understand what I am saying. You could condemn Jesus who said " Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken ( JOhn 10:34-35)

God's plan was to have many sons like Son of God ( Heb 2:10)

Who said God cloned Him and made Adam?

God was not making toys or puppets, but small gods so that He can eventually expand His World by having many sons.

Is this Heresy? According to your religion ?

 

[Moriah]

Even if Human beings failed to reach the goals and purposes of God, the originial intention and plan of God was to expand His Realm by having many sons like the Only Begotten Son ( Heb 2:10)

You can read Psalm 82:6 and John 10:35.

God created Adam in His likeness. and that's why God calls the Believers " Ye are gods, and all of you are sons of Elion (the Most High) " ( Psalm 82:6)

God didn't predestine Adolf Hitler to kill 6 millions of Jews. God didn't predestine 99% of the people not to believe in Jesus disobeying His own commandments.

God never predestined Israel to be rebellious against God and to worship idols.

If any God had predestined 99% of the people not to believe in Jesus and to go to the Hell, that God must go to the Hell too!

I am very cautious about saying anything the Bible does not say exactly, like “Adam is a god.” The Mormon religion calls Adam a god, and has many added teachings that are not in the Bible about Adam. Thank you for explaining. I understand exactly.

John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’[a]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

 

[Don]

For the new covenant to apply to a man because of something he did or even had to believe from within himself would be for that man to have participated in his being born again. It would be as if he had impregnated himself to be born.

As you had nothing, zilch, to do with your natural birth you will have nothing, zilch, to do with your spiritual birth.

I guess it's your turn, then. Would you please explain the words from John the Baptist, Paul, and even Jesus Himself that say "believe and ye shall be saved"?