Ye reject salvation by grace !

[steaver]

I will not be answering anymore questions about me. If you want to know what I believe as the Gospel, then read my thread thereon:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72022

You never began to answer any questions about how the gospel came to you.

We already know what you believe about the gospel. What we don't know is how you came to CHrist, it is called a testimony and these testimonies give glory to Jesus Christ. THis is why it sounds very odd to the board that you refuse to share your testimony of how God revealed the gospel to you and you first believed.

 

[savedbymercy]

don

You did, in post #133.

I never said trusting was not a work, show the quote ! I believe trusting is a work, it is the same as believing, which I state clearly is a work !

I already fully explained

No you have not, now explain what I said in post 133, every point, or this will end our correspondence. You have already start dealing deceitfully.

You identify "belief" as a work,

Yes it is a work, something man does with his mind. The word work that is used in scripture as in Eph 2:9 is the greek word ergon, and is defined as :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work

Now believing fits these definitions, for it is an act of man, it is a deed of man, it is a thing done by man, it is accomplished by the mind of man !

So now you can deny it all you want, believing is a work , and that by definition of the word work that God inspired the sacred writers to use ergon !

And you have still failed to explain all what I stated in post 133 !!

 

[Don]

don

I never said trusting was not a work, show the quote ! I believe trusting is a work, it is the same as believing, which I state clearly is a work !

No you have not, now explain what I said in post 133, every point, or this will end our correspondence. You have already start dealing deceitfully.

Deceitfully? No; this has been a voyage of discovery to understand what it is you say you believe.

Your statements here lead me to ask: Do you preach for a works-based salvation, or against a works-based salvation?

The reason I ask this is because in post #133, you say you trust (believe) what has been revealed. If you didn't trust (believe) what had been revealed, would you be saved?

-----
Every time someone mentions believing, you post something about a works-based salvation.

I point you to five scriptures:
Acts 16 - the jailer asks, "what must I do to be saved?" Paul tells him, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."
Romans 10:9 - if thou...shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Hebrews 10:39 - but we are...of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life
And finally, the words of Jesus (God Himself in the flesh): John 3:16 - that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So please--explain further what it is you mean by "belief" is a works-based salvation, since it's very plain from scripture that we must believe in order to be saved.

 

[savedbymercy]

don

The reason I ask this is because in post #133, you say you trust (believe) what has been revealed.

Yes, ones Salvation is Revealed or made known by the Gospel ! That is the fact to be Trusted. The Trusting did not make the Fact True.

And you are still not doing what I asked.

If you didn't trust (believe) what had been revealed, would you be saved?

Yes, ones believing or Trusting the Testimony of God, is not what saved anyone ! That is works !

And you have still failed to explain all what I stated in post 133 !!

 

[DHK]

I never said trusting was not a work, show the quote ! I believe trusting is a work, it is the same as believing, which I state clearly is a work !

Yes it is a work, something man does with his mind. The word work that is used in scripture as in Eph 2:9 is the greek word ergon, and is defined as :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work

Now believing fits these definitions, for it is an act of man, it is a deed of man, it is a thing done by man, it is accomplished by the mind of man !

So now you can deny it all you want, believing is a work , and that by definition of the word work that God inspired the sacred writers to use ergon !

You have cornered yourself in your contradictions.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1. We are saved by grace.
2. We are saved through faith.
3. We are not saved by works.

We are saved through faith which you say is a work.
But the verse says we are not saved through works.
Conclusion: SBG contradicts the Bible or has the Bible contradicting itself.

 

[Don]

don
Yes, ones Salvation is Revealed or made known by the Gospel ! That is the fact to be Trusted. The Trusting did not make the Fact True.

Yes, ones believing or Trusting the Testimony of God, is not what saved anyone ! That is works !

That appears to be contradictory to scripture that I've provided, that specifically commands "believe and be saved." Are you saying scripture is wrong?

OR, are you saying that we believe/trust in Christ's finished work on the cross? (which is what I "believe" you're trying to say, but you're not explaining it well enough for anyone, especially someone as dense as me, to understand)

The only other conclusion I can think of is that you're saying that it doesn't matter what anyone believes; that we were chosen before time began, and will be in Heaven with Him as one of the chosen/elect/remnant upon the judgment.

And you are still not doing what I asked.

And you have still failed to explain all what I stated in post 133 !!

Please; as I stated, this is a journey of discovery to understand what it is you say you believe. I explained my initial understanding of your statements in previous messages; as this discussion continues, and as I (hopefully) understand you better, the explanation evolves.

Besides, I've been asking you about the scriptures that say "believe and be saved" for quite a while, and you have yet to directly address any of those.

 

[Don]

Just read your other thread about Romans 10; are you saying that the Jews Paul is talking about in Romans 10 are already saved, they just have to realize it?

Or that only certain people are saved, and they are the only ones that will realize it?

If I understand your train of thought, you're either saying we are all saved, but most of us don't know it; OR, you're saying that only some are saved, and those are the only ones that will understand and then believe.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

But the verse says we are not saved through works.

I know what the verse says, but you teach that a person is saved by something he does ! Believing is something man does. Do you deny that ?

 

[savedbymercy]

don

That appears to be contradictory to scripture that I've provided, that specifically commands "believe and be saved." Are you saying scripture is wrong?

One more time, explain what I stated in post 133 !

 

[Yeshua1]

dhk



Thats your opinion, and to me yours is no different from roman catholics, or any other work salvation system !

ironic that you accuse DHK of holding to RC theology, yet he come out from that, and is one of the strongest resisters of that belief system!

Your salvation model indeed seems Islamic, as your God would be the master puppeter!

 

[steaver]

don



I never said trusting was not a work, show the quote ! I believe trusting is a work, it is the same as believing, which I state clearly is a work !


Yes it is a work, something man does with his mind. The word work that is used in scripture as in Eph 2:9 is the greek word ergon, and is defined as :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work

Now believing fits these definitions, for it is an act of man, it is a deed of man, it is a thing done by man, it is accomplished by the mind of man !

So now you can deny it all you want, believing is a work , and that by definition of the word work that God inspired the sacred writers to use ergon !

And you have still failed to explain all what I stated in post 133 !!

This web you have spun has ceratainly become your own snare. The scripture is clear...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9)

You declare faith is a work. Paul declares ye are saved through faith and declares "not by works".

 

[Don]

don

One more time, explain what I stated in post 133 !

Through the Gospel God reveals to one their completed salvation and Justification, that is why it is called the Gospel of your Salvation". One is Trusting what has been revealed ! Also, the one Trusting is the one who has already been begotten again by the resurrection of Christ from the Dead, they are already a New Creature before hearing and Trusting.

It is, it is one of those works that the New Creation has been ordained to do !

Believing is a good work !

The bolded, italicized parts explain clearly what you stated. From a supralapsarian point of view, what you're saying is that all who are saved were chosen, and thus already saved, from the beginning.

There are two conclusions that you haven't clarified: 1) only a certain few have been chosen; or 2) we are all saved. I'm hoping that you say "only a certain few."

Now your turn to answer: Jesus (God Himself in the flesh) said believe, and ye shall have eternal life. This wasn't a present tense statement; it was a command followed by what will happen if you follow the command. This command came from God Himself. This commandment was understood by John the Baptist that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; understood by Paul the apostle that we must believe and we will be saved; and understood by the author of Hebrews to mean that we must believe to the saving of our soul.

Please explain how what you stated is supported by the very words of God Himself, much less the apostles.

Of course, the follow on question is: What exactly have you trusted/believed? That you're one of the elect? Or that Jesus died for you?

 

[DHK]

dhk

I know what the verse says, but you teach that a person is saved by something he does ! Believing is something man does. Do you deny that ?

NO! I teach that faith is not a work.
You wrongly teach that it is. Both Romans 4:1-5 teach that faith is not a work. And Eph.2:8,9 teach that faith is not a work. These Scriptures have you contradicting yourself and contradicting the Bible.
They teach that one is saved through faith.
You teach faith is a work.
Thus you believe that salvation is by works--a heresy.
Correct?

 

[Eliyahu]

Believing is not a Work. Bible itself distinguishes between Works and Believing (Rom 4:5-6, Eph 2:8-9)


God's grace is for ALL

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ( 2Pet 3:9)

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ( 1 John 2:2)


Predestination in the Bible like in Eph 1:5- is different from what the Calvinists claim by TULIP

God predestined all human beings to believe in Jesus, but they refused.

There are some things that Almighty God cannot do, not because He is incompetent, but because of the restrictions by His Own Attributes.

God didn't make Adam as a puppet or a Robot or toy, but as a god so that He may expand the realm of God's world.

 

[Moriah]

Believing is not a Work. Bible itself distinguishes between Works and Believing (Rom 4:5-6, Eph 2:8-9)


God's grace is for ALL

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ( 2Pet 3:9)

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ( 1 John 2:2)


Predestination in the Bible like in Eph 1:5- is different from what the Calvinists claim by TULIP

God predestined all human beings to believe in Jesus, but they refused.

There are some things that Almighty God cannot do, not because He is incompetent, but because of the restrictions by His Own Attributes.

God didn't make Adam as a puppet or a Robot or toy, but as a god so that He may expand the realm of God's world.

It feels good to read truth here on this board.

 

[Moriah]

Believing is not a Work. Bible itself distinguishes between Works and Believing (Rom 4:5-6, Eph 2:8-9)


God's grace is for ALL

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ( 2Pet 3:9)

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ( 1 John 2:2)


Predestination in the Bible like in Eph 1:5- is different from what the Calvinists claim by TULIP

God predestined all human beings to believe in Jesus, but they refused.

There are some things that Almighty God cannot do, not because He is incompetent, but because of the restrictions by His Own Attributes.

God didn't make Adam as a puppet or a Robot or toy, but as a god so that He may expand the realm of God's world.

Okay, wait a minute, why are you calling Adam a god.

 

[savedbymercy]

ironic that you accuse DHK of holding to RC theology, yet he come out from that, and is one of the strongest resisters of that belief system!

Your salvation model indeed seems Islamic, as your God would be the master puppeter!

You are a offspring of popery, which cannot get away from the ensnarement of the devil, of Salvation by works, by what a man does !

 

[savedbymercy]

eli

Believing is not a Work.

Yes it is see post 142

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

NO! I teach that faith is not a work.

You teach against scripture. Show me a verse that states Faith is not a work ! Faith or Believing is something man does !

 

[savedbymercy]

The bolded, italicized parts explain clearly what you stated. From a supralapsarian point of view, what you're saying is that all who are saved were chosen, and thus already saved, from the beginning.

There are two conclusions that you haven't clarified: 1) only a certain few have been chosen; or 2) we are all saved. I'm hoping that you say "only a certain few."

Now your turn to answer: Jesus (God Himself in the flesh) said believe, and ye shall have eternal life. This wasn't a present tense statement; it was a command followed by what will happen if you follow the command. This command came from God Himself. This commandment was understood by John the Baptist that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; understood by Paul the apostle that we must believe and we will be saved; and understood by the author of Hebrews to mean that we must believe to the saving of our soul.

Please explain how what you stated is supported by the very words of God Himself, much less the apostles.

Of course, the follow on question is: What exactly have you trusted/believed? That you're one of the elect? Or that Jesus died for you?

Last time, if you do not explain what I said in post 133 honestly, I will ignore you here on out !