Yos can't lose salvation!

[Ed Edwards]

will they ever answer.....

Maybe they went to a 'cooler' place:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=39314

 

[AAA]

Post 84

Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Cahpter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots o time -- but if you do not nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.

how many times have you restated this?

this does not say we can lose our salvation.....

 

[Ed Edwards]

How do you know a false convert from a true one and when has someone lost their salvation?

You can't; I can't.

God can.

Jesus Saves (period).

 

[Oasis]

drfuss

Oasis writes:
"My point, made in my post, was that regardless of Peter's failures he could not lose his salvation because it was not his to lose."

drfuss: Oasis, we still are not talking about the same thing. I am not talking about "Losing your salvation"; I was talking about "forfeiting your salvation".

Hi drfuss,

Ok, I see now. It looks like ccdnt started a thread on the difference between the two. I think it's a mute point. Neither can happen to a Christian.

When it comes down to the possibility of losing it or forfeiting it...don't believe it.
God the Father extended perfect Grace to imperfect man. God the Son became the perfect sacrifice for our sins--past, present, and future. God the Holy Spirit is the perfect indwelling in a Christian. He guides our heart and conscience. The idea that a true Christian can somehow can forfeit or lose given perfection is entirely foreign to Scripture.

I came from an AOG church about 14 years ago, which tends to believe you can lose your salvation although they are not that definitive on the issue. Even though I was going to an SBC church which believes in OSAS, I changed to believing one can forfeit their salvation, but not lose it. Obviously I looked into OSAS, but the scripture support is not there. Note that going to an SBC church, it would be much easier for me to accept OSAS, but to me the scripture does not support it.

BTW, I have never attended a church that believes one can forfeit their salvation, but not lose it. I came to that conclusion completely on my own based only on scripture. Just recently, I found that is what the Free-Will Baptist believes, but I have never attended a FW Baptists church.

Thanks for sharing that drfuss.

Oasis, when you changed from the COC belief to the OSAS belief, did you consider the belief that a Christian can forfeit their salvation, but not lose it?

Did you only consider OSAS?

Actually, there was a 3 year period between the CofC and SBC. The answer to your question is, yes. Because I'd come out of a heterodox legalistic sect I had a particular interest in this issue and in Salvation issues. Through personal experience and study I encountered many beliefs on this issue.
There were the:
1.Can forfeit it but can't lose it crowd.
2.Can lose it but won't forfeit it crowd.
3.Can lose it and forfeit it crowd.
4.Can't lose it or forfeit it regardless of lifestyle crowd.
5.I grew up in the can lose it and forfeit it but can rededicate yourself crowd(CofC). This never made since because they say baptism saves you, but if you lose or forfeit your Christianity you only have to rededicate you life. Based on their Salvational belief, you would have to be baptized again...everytime you lose or forfeit your Salvation.:BangHead:
6.Then there is the can't lose it or forfeit it crowd with the life change evident. That's me.:thumbs:

drfuss, I know you don't agree, but for 30 years when I thought I'd worked to gain Salvation and had to work to maintain it, I was miserable. I finally gave up because I couldn't do it. When I finally started studying on my own and set the CofC garbage aside, I realized it wasn't me that bought my Salvation or maintained my Salvation. Christ bought me and maintains my walk with Him through the Holy Spirit. Since I grasped that 14 years ago, I've been a different person. I now understand that it is not what I did to gain Christ or did for Christ. It is what Christ did for me and does through me that justified me and spiritually glorified me at the same time.

"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."-Romans 8:30 NIV

My faith in Christ is stronger than anything that Satan could cause me to lose or forfeit. How do I know this? The Apostle Paul says so.

"No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nore demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."-Romans 8:37-39 NIV

Paul left no stone unturned in the keeping power of God for those who have been reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ. In these 14 years I've been tested...more than some...less than others. I've never doubted the keeping power of my God in that time.
drfuss, He will not give us a burden we cannot bear and He intercedes for us day and night. Can I do less than love Him back regardless of the cost?

Have a great day drfuss!:godisgood:

 

[drfuss]

Oasis writes:
"drfuss, I know you don't agree, but for 30 years when I thought I'd worked to gain Salvation and had to work to maintain it, I was miserable. I finally gave up because I couldn't do it. When I finally started studying on my own and set the CofC garbage aside, I realized it wasn't me that bought my Salvation or maintained my Salvation. Christ bought me and maintains my walk with Him through the Holy Spirit. Since I grasped that 14 years ago, I've been a different person. I now understand that it is not what I did to gain Christ or did for Christ. It is what Christ did for me and does through me that justified me and spiritually glorified me at the same time.

"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."-Romans 8:30 NIV"

drfuss: But I do agree with all of the above (except where you say I don't agree).

Oasis writes:
" "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nore demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."-Romans 8:37-39 NIV

Paul left no stone unturned in the keeping power of God for those who have been reconciled to Him through Jesus Christ. In these 14 years I've been tested...more than some...less than others. I've never doubted the keeping power of my God in that time.
drfuss, He will not give us a burden we cannot bear and He intercedes for us day and night. Can I do less than love Him back regardless of the cost?"

drfuss: And I agree with all of the above except your application of Romans 8:37-39. As long as you choose to continue trusting Christ, all of that scripture certainly applies. Note that the scripture does not include "even if we decide to stop trusting Chtist". If that were included, OSAS would be established. It cannot include a Christian deciding to stop trusting Christ because of the many scriptures that warn us against it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
Actually, there was a 3 year period between the CofC and SBC. The answer to your question is, yes. Because I'd come out of a heterodox legalistic sect I had a particular interest in this issue and in Salvation issues. Through personal experience and study I encountered many beliefs on this issue.

There were the:

1.Can forfeit it but can't lose it crowd.

2.Can lose it but won't forfeit it crowd.

3.Can lose it and forfeit it crowd.

4.Can't lose it or forfeit it regardless of lifestyle crowd.

5.I grew up in the can lose it and forfeit it but can rededicate yourself crowd(CofC). This never made since because they say baptism saves you, but if you lose or forfeit your Christianity you only have to rededicate you life. Based on their Salvational belief, you would have to be baptized again...everytime you lose or forfeit your Salvation.:BangHead:

6.Then there is the can't lose it or forfeit it crowd with the life change evident. That's me.:thumbs:

...

Amen Oasis -- you are so RIGHT ON!

For the Christian:

Past - Justification - Jesus initially
cleaing up your sins and
treating one 'just as if I'd never sinned'
-- Jesus does justification salvation
(of course, you have to cooperate)

Present - Scantification - Jesus daily cleaning
up your daily sins
-- Jesus does scantification salvation
(of course, you have to cooperate)

Future - Glorification (or Redemption) - The beginning of the
second (eternal) life, at the second coming of
Christ [even if you die first, you will be there
and be resurrected; otherwise you will be raptured
from the earth when Jesus comes to get you]
-- Jesus does glorification salvation
(of course, you have to cooperate*)

*I have no idea what 'cooperate' means in
this circumstance, I just threw that in cause
cause it was in the other two.

 

[Eliyahu]

drfuss: And I agree with all of the above except your application of Romans 8:37-39. As long as you choose to continue trusting Christ, all of that scripture certainly applies. Note that the scripture does not include "even if we decide to stop trusting Chtist". If that were included, OSAS would be established. It cannot include a Christian deciding to stop trusting Christ because of the many scriptures that warn us against it.

If anyone was truly born again, he or she cannot decide to stop trusting in Christ, because the Holy Spirit in that person continues to witness as an everlasting fountain.

So, I believe OSAS is correct!

But my Wesleyan friends always say that one can lose the salvation. They are truly born-again believers though. They interpret the Bible quite well and are very strong in Sanctification, but reject OSAS.

They say that Demas in 2 Tim 4:10 might have lost the salvation, which I disagree.

My belief is that the person was not saved from the beginning if he or she once believed then lost the salvation. ( 1 John 2:19)

So, I tolerate the objections, but believe OSAS is correct.

 

[ccdnt]

Ccdnt:

Matthew 24:10 is a sign that the Church Age (AKA: Time
of the Gentiles) continues. This sign was still present
earlier today. I have no idea where you got your
translation (it would be nice if you would tell us
so we can look it up to see if you can cut & paste
alright???

Mat 24:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And then shall many be offended,
and shall betray one another,
and shall hate one another.

The YOU in Matt 24:9 is saved people.
The false Prophets in Matt 24:11 are not saved people.
I suggest the ones in Matt 24:10 are NOT saved
people: the haters and the betrayers
(and probbaly the offenders also).

IMHO 'fall away' is a poor translation.
Where did you dig it up?
Wrong verse, wrong interpertation.
Matthew 24:10 is an OSAS proof text.

The NASB is usually the translation I use. Here are more.

Matthew 24:10
NASB - At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
NIV - At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other
ESV - And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another
KJV - And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another

The KJV (and NKJV) were the only translations I found thus far that translate this as "offended". As you said, "fall away" is a poor translation in your opinion. This does not mean that it is a poor translation however.

Matthew 24:10-11
9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
(I agree, this is speaking of people that are saved)

10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
(As for this referring to people that are not saved, I agree...after these people fall away, they are no longer saved. I see the clearest reading here as this referring to people that were saved and then fell away. A person never saved to begin with would not be able to fall away since they were not in a position from which to fall.)

 

[JDale]

If anyone was truly born again, he or she cannot decide to stop trusting in Christ, because the Holy Spirit in that person continues to witness as an everlasting fountain.

So, I believe OSAS is correct!

But my Wesleyan friends always say that one can lose the salvation. They are truly born-again believers though. They interpret the Bible quite well and are very strong in Sanctification, but reject OSAS.

EH, both positions are wrong.

JDale

 

[Ed Edwards]

Short word study of FALL AWAY in the KJV1769 Edition:

Heb 6:6 (KJV1769 Edition with Strong's numbers):
If they(2532) shall fall away,3895 to renew340
them again3825 unto1519 repentance;3341
seeing they crucify to themselves
the Son of God afresh,388, 1438, 3588, 5207, 2316
and2532 put him to an open shame.3856

From Strong's:
G3895
παραπίπτω
parapiptō
par-ap-ip'-to
From G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, that is,
(figuratively) to apostatize: - fall away.



Luk 8:13 (KJV1769 Edition with Strong's numbers):
(1161) They3588 on1909 the3588 rock4073 are they,
which,3739 when3752 they hear,191
receive1209 the3588 word3056 with3326
joy;5479 and2532 these3778 have2192
no3756 root,4491 which3739 for4314
a while2540 believe,4100 and2532
in1722 time2540 of temptation3986
fall away.868

From Strong's:
G868
ἀφίστημι
aphistēmi
af-is'-tay-mee
From G575 and G2476; to remove, that is, (actively) instigate
to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert,
etc.: - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.



Mat 24:10 (KJV1769 Edition with Strong's numbers):
And2532 then5119 shall many4183
be offended*,4624 and2532 shall betray3860
one another,240 and2532 shall hate3404 one another.240

* 'fall away' in some other translations

From Strong's:
G4624
σκανδαλίζω
skandalizō
skan-dal-id'-zo
To “scandalize”; from G4625; to entrap, that is,
trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively]
or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):
- (make to) offend.

I've put these in order from the most likely to be
Saved to the least likely.
I think only the passage in Hebrews 6 referrs to
actually saved persons. And I've shown elsewhere
how Hebrews 6 is a 'reductio ad absurdum' arugument
showing that falling from grace is ABSURD.

Luk 8:13 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
But they that are on the stones, are they
which when they haue heard, receiue
ye word with ioy: but they haue no rootes:
which for a while beleeue,
but in the time of tentation goe away.

Neversaved, in my books.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: which for a while beleeue,
but in the time of tentation goe away.

Neversaved, in my books.

HP: Now Ed, you were adamant about the only condition to salvation as ‘believing’ were you not? Now here you have one that believes, although for a short period of time, and you say “never saved???”

“Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.”

 

[Ed Edwards]

That scripture really doesn't say what the person believed.
You say he believed in Jesus as Messiah. Your saying is
not the same as scripture saying.

Also, please don't take a parable past what it says.
Thank you.

The carnal man says "I believe I'll have a beer";
the spiritual man says "I believe Jesus is my Lord".
There is a difference in the word 'believe' here.

 

[Hope of Glory]

HP: Now Ed, you were adamant about the only condition to salvation as ‘believing’ were you not? Now here you have one that believes, although for a short period of time, and you say “never saved???”

“Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.”

It's actually simply "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". Believing on his name is something else.

BTW, to claim that forfeiting salvation is not the same as losing it is absurd. Ever seen the score in a forfeited baseball game? It still goes in the "loss" column.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: That scripture really doesn't say what the person believed.
You say he believed in Jesus as Messiah. Your saying is
not the same as scripture saying.

Also, please don't take a parable past what it says.
Thank you.

The carnal man says "I believe I'll have a beer";
the spiritual man says "I believe Jesus is my Lord".
There is a difference in the word 'believe' here.

Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

HP: Whatever they believed, they stopped believing in. If they were lost, how could they stop believing? They would have never believed according to what you teach, and never could have.

You are placing questions upon the clear meanings of this verse that are contrary to common sense and reason. Something is wrong with ones beliefs when they have to go to this extreme to deny the clearly implied ideas conveyed by any fair examination of the text.

If you notice Ed, the text clearly implies receiving the word (Christ is the Word) with joy. Salvation/Christ is the object of belief spoken of in this text. For you to call that into question is beyond reason.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: It's actually simply "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". Believing on his name is something else.

HP: Could you explain to the list this distinction you are alluding to?

HOG: BTW, to claim that forfeiting salvation is not the same as losing it is absurd. Ever seen the score in a forfeited baseball game? It still goes in the "loss" column.

HP: ‘Loss’ is one thing and ‘lost’ is something else.

We are not playing word games here. Call it whatever you would like, but Scripture clearly indicates that not only is it possible to ‘move away’ from ones hope of eternal life, but some indeed have and serve us well as examples not to follow in their steps.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Quoted above:

Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they,
which, when they hear, receive the word
with joy; and these have no root,
which for a while believe, and
in time of temptation fall away.

Again, this does NOT specifically specify
'believe in Jesus, the Messiah'. Those who think it
says that are assuming it does.
Such assumption conflicts many other doctrines.

Again: here is my definition of OSAS = Once
Saved, Always Saved:

Joh 3:16-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world,
that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Sonne
into the world to condemne the world:
but that the world through him might be saued.

'saved' = 'should not perish, but have everlasting life'
'OSAS' IMHO means what ever the 'everlasting life'
means in this verse.

Jesus saves [period]

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: Such assumption conflicts many other doctrines.

HP: When the plain, simple and clearly understood truth of a passage is found to be in contradiction to ones doctrines, it is time to work on changing ones doctrines to fit the plain truth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

:jesus:

What you lack in epistemology you sure make up in pig-headedness.

:godisgood:

 

[Ed Edwards]

:jesus:

What you lack in epistemology you sure make up in pigheadedness.

:godisgood:

My bad. I rephrase:

What one lacks in epistemology one makes up in tenacity.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 8

In the Parable of the Sower we have one case of “never was saved” and 3 cases of “Saved” where “Two of them” show “Saved and then lost”. It is a case of the “Dead” barren ground - coming to life because of the Word of God – and then dying again.

Once they come to life – “failing to endure” or failing to “perservere” in that state can not be worked into a “failure to remain in a less lost state means that you are now really really lost”. And of course – the dead can not “of themselves” – “come to life”.

Luke 8: The parable of the Sower

4 When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable:
5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up.

Christ shows that these are they who never were saved. A case of the dead that never came to life.

11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Clearly it is a reference to “salvation” and the Gospel. The highest theme in the Bible.

Those along the roadside never even ENTER the saved condition because they never believe. Life from the dead ground never even happens in that case.


===================================================

6 "Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.

This dead and barren ground – springs to life due to the word of God but then withered “away” – dies. They “fall away” says Christ. (As we find in Gal 5 – “Fallen from Grace”).

Even though they “received the Word” – and John tells us that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”. They received Christ, the dead came to life, but then “withered away”. You can not “wither away” from the dead. You must be alive to die.

The fault is not that they were alive – but that they had no moisture and withered away AFTER coming to life. It is failure to REMAIN in that new state that is always the problem. Simply springing to life – receiving the word with Joy – Believing etc – none of that is condemned. It is failure to REMAIN that is condemned in every case.

But failure to “remain totally depraved or lost” is never problem in scripture.

13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away