JDale said:NOTE for the umpteenth time: Reformed Arminians DO NOT TEACH one can LOSE salvation.
JDale
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JDale said:NOTE for the umpteenth time: Reformed Arminians DO NOT TEACH one can LOSE salvation.
JDale
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Forgive me if you have told the is, but what is a “Reformed Arminian?” What exactly do you claim to believe, OSAS?
JDale said:A Reformed Arminian more closely relates theologically to the position of Arminius himself, rather than to the "Wesleyan-Arminian" view.
Arminius held that Total Depravity as Calvinists understood it was essentially correct. However, He also held to a Conditional Election (FAITH being the condition), a General Atonement, the Resistiblility of Grace, and the Possibility of Apostasy.
Wesleyan-Arminians vary in their views or interpretations of Total Depravity to some degree, and on the Possibility of Apostasy. BOTH Wesleyan and Reformed Arminians believe it is POSSIBLE to forfeit salvation, but RA's affirm that if one comes to that point (that is, apostasy) that they cannot "renew themselves again..." In other words, if one apostasizes, he is eternally lost and cannot or will not desire to be saved again (Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-31). WA's tend to believe in "Repeated Regeneration," or the possibility that one can, through sin or faithlessness, "backslide" to the extent that they are not saved, yet, they can come back into the grace of God should they choose to repent. Some would say that the repentant believer is then "re-saved," but other WA's would resist that as the description of what occurs.
RA's and WA's are further apart on this issue, actually, than are RA's and typical Southern Baptists, whom I generally identify as Modified Arminians or 2 point Calvinists.
JDale
Hope of Glory said:Ed,
It's good to see someone else who sees that both sides have some of it right and some of it wrong.
I've had multiple times, when asked if I'm Calvinist or Arminian, "I reply 'neither'".
"Oh, you have to be one or the other!"
"Why?"
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Arminius held that Total Depravity as Calvinists understood it was essentially correct.
HP: If you are suggesting that the WA would feel differently than the Calvinist or the RA on total depravity, what would you see as the distinctions between them?
HP:I suppose I would like to ask Arminius, or any that say they believe like him, how a dead log floating down a stream, that has to wait on God to offer them grace, receives the ability to resist that offer having no ability but to sin and that continually. Does God grant to these dead creatures the ability to resist and accept His offer of grace? That would appear to me to be a strange grace, grace to resist God. It would appear to me to be sort of self-defeating? Let’s say that one is granted the grace to resist. What difference would that make?? They were lost without hope before due to nothing they personally had done, and then in that dead state are given an obviously overpowering influence to resist God’s grace, to what avail? Before grace they were simply dead. Now having received grace they can now resist the cure? Such a one believing this still has the question to answer how God can hold them responsible for any sin, let alone punish them eternally when they were born into a state that rendered them helpless to be any thing other than what they are, sinners.
Would not this enabling grace granted to the sinner seem a bit like handing someone that has been tarred, feathered, and without hope due to no fault of his own, a bucket of tar and a bushel of feathers to assure him that he will remain that way?
JDale said:A Clarification:
Some WA's prefer the term "total inability" rather than total depravity. That's what I was referring to. As to what theological differences there are -- or if its just a matter of semantics -- I'll leave for another thread. Most WA's I know would not, however, greatly differ on the condition of man in his natural, fallen state.
That God enables man to believe is part and parcel of His grace! That He doesn't FORCE salvation upon is does not mean He is therefore cruel or somehow arbitrary. Quite the contrary -- the Calvinist idea that God PREDETERMINES the eternal state of every individual before they ever exist, yet somehow holds them accountable for their sins, appears cruel and contrary to the nature of God. (Yes, I know, that's not how Calvinists describe what they believe -- but it is what most often people take away from their arguments).
That God gives people the ability to believe, and many choose not to, simply affirms the love, mercy and grace of God, as well as the fallenness of all mankind. Man's failure to accept God's gift isn't God's desire -- but He does foreknow, enable and allow His creations to choose.
JDale
BobRyan said:From Post 84
Post 84
Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.
#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.
#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.
#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.
#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.
#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".
#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.
#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."
#8. The Cahpter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots o time -- but if you do not nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.
Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".
The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.
That is instructive.
BobRyan said:There is a flaw in your logic. In Romans 11 Paul is not saying "BECOME joined to Christ" he is saying "You are right ... you ARE grafted into Christ... do not be arrogant but FEAR for you only STAND by your FAITH" -
He is NOT saying "HEY I told you to fear and you DID fear so that means you are not saved".
Your argurment is running contrary to the content of Roman 11.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: If a person is on God’s pre-saved list, are you suggesting that one can resist the Holy Spirit and fool God, or possibly God’s list is ever in flux? Now it would sem logical to men, that if one starts from the presupposition of God having a pre-saved list, one would of necessity have to believe in irresistible grace.
HP: What about us? How can we know with absolute certainty that we are on a pre-saved list?
HP: Before you can settle this, it would be logical to nail down this pre-saved list theory. If you cannot do anything to lose something, I would say that is rather irresistible, wouldn’t you?
Matthew 24:10 - At that time many
will fall away -
[implies this is referring to believers since
one cannot fall from a position if he was
never in that position in the first place]
- and will betray one another and hate one another.
BobRyan said:HP has been holding the Calvinist's feet to the fire on Limited Atonement by arguing they can not use the "all of Christ none of you" argument for "OSAS" and yet reject limited atonement because anything else is showing some impact "on what you decide or do".
In the same way I have argued that Arminians need to come to grips withthe fact that their "Free will" position directly contradicts OSAS since the person who chooses salvation CAN still CHOOSE to fall away.
To deny free will after salvation - is not an Arminian position.
In Christ,
Bob
In the same way I have argued that Arminians need to come to grips withthe fact that their "Free will" position directly contradicts OSAS since the person who chooses salvation CAN still CHOOSE to fall away.
Ed Edwards said:I'm not Calvinist, I'm not Arminian:
Phillippians 2:12 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore, my beloued,
as yee haue alwayes obeyed,
not as in my presence onely,
but now much more in my absence;
worke out your owne saluation
with feare, and trembling.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: What part of TULIP do you believe is in error? Forgive me if I cannot remember what you have previously stated concerning this matter.
Ed Edwards said:T Total depravity
U Unconditional election
L Limited atonement
I Irresistible grace
P Perseverance of the saints
I don't believe 'I Irresistible Grace' is not
correct &/or misunderstood. A person doesn't know
if they are on God's pre-saved list. They can
resist the Holy Spirit. The only way people can tell
if another person is saved is if they both get to
Heaven.
'P' is correct, once a person received God's Saving
Grace, it will NOT be withdrawn. Only don't mess with
God, He made lots of ways you can slowly kill yourself
and get 'called out' prematurely.
Ed Edwards said:Yep.
Here is the 23rd Psalm:
Psa 23:1-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
[A Psalme of Dauid.]
The Lord is my shepheard, I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie downe
in greene pastures: he leadeth mee
beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soule: he leadeth me
in the pathes of righteousnes,
for his names sake.
4 Yea though I walke through the valley
of the shadowe of death, I will feare no euill:
for thou art with me,
thy rod and thy staffe, they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me,
in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oyle,
my cuppe runneth ouer.
6 Surely goodnes and mercie shall followe me
all the daies of my life: and I will dwell
in the house of the Lord for euer.
For frequent quotes see:
Daily Reading the KJV1611 Edition
at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31304&page=12
BobRyan said:See this post on this thread by someone who knows the truth about this subject --
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=996227&postcount=42
A "must read" for all Bible believing Christians!
ccdnt said:How can one fall away from a position they were never in? A person that was never saved to begin with was never in Christ; therefore, how could the person fall away from Christ?
Luke 8:13 - "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away - [saying they "believe" implies that these are people who do become believers (Christians) but it does not last since it says they "fall away"[/quote ].
Hebrews 3:12;14 - Take care, brethren - [again, referring to believers], - that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. - [why warn these people of the possibility of them getting an evil, unbelieving heart and of falling away if it would be impossible for them to do so?]
What great points sir!
Excellent Bible study - wonderful logic, rock solid scriptural position.
What a great Bible survey LEADING IN to Heb 6!!
Thanks to CCDNT for that post.
Thanks to AAA for not letting that post get lost!!
Home Run!
Point! Game! Set! Match!
Well done!
in Christ,
Bob
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