Yos can't lose salvation!

[AAA]

Ccdnt:

Matthew 24:10 is a sign that the Church Age (AKA: Time
of the Gentiles) continues. This sign was still present
earlier today. I have no idea where you got your
translation (it would be nice if you would tell us
so we can look it up to see if you can cut & paste
alright???

Mat 24:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And then shall many be offended,
and shall betray one another,
and shall hate one another.

The YOU in Matt 24:9 is saved people.
The false Prophets in Matt 24:11 are not saved people.
I suggest the ones in Matt 24:10 are NOT saved
people: the haters and the betrayers
(and probbaly the offenders also).

IMHO 'fall away' is a poor translation.
Where did you dig it up?
Wrong verse, wrong interpertation.
Matthew 24:10 is an OSAS proof text.

Context interpretation deos matter....

 

[AAA]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away[/b]; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Rom 11:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, [b]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.



They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

Rom 11:
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.[/b]



They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

Rom11:
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.



God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

[/QUOTE]

We are now hearing a broken record of this thread.......lol

 

[AAA]

Matt 18
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.
Matt 18
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

Matt 18
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Matt 18
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.
Matt 18
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues (and motivates Peter via the illustration given as an answer to Peter’s question) that WE who have been forgiven by our heavenly Father “should” as in (are obligated to) forgive others.

Paul makes this same case in Col 3

I am so glad that no verse controdicts that we can't lose our salvation, because if it did then the bible would be false..........

Bible does not controdict it self..............

 

[AAA]

I get your point...n/t

 

[AAA]

Wow, looks like someone is familiar with action words and tenses for verbs…did you also notice in John 3:16 that …have everlasting life. is also in the present tense? It doesn’t say that you will have eternal life in the past or future, but that you will currently be having eternal life. He who is currently, habitually and continuously believing…will be currently and presently having eternal life.

So now we add another element of a Greek verb tense that denotes one point in time, aorist.

John 3:16…For God so loved (aorist, a past point in time) the world, that he gave (aorist, a past point in time) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present, current, progressive action) in him should not perish (aorist, a past point in time), but have (present, current, progressive action) everlasting life.

The present tense that whosoever is believing in Him puts a different light on the verse. One would expect the word believe to be aorist, to show it’s a “once-and-for-all” act, a “one-point-in-time” event. As a former fundamentalist I used to say, I believed in Christ on such and such a date so I know I am saved. But now I say, I did believe in Christ, I am believing in Christ and I am being saved. One could ask why Jesus switched to the present tense in a verse full of aorists. The present tense implies continually believing, a process of believing, and not the past mental assent I once thought.

One needs to be careful with the interpretation of the Bible, for what one believes and understands has eternal consequences.

-

Thanks...n/t

 

[AAA]

AAA writes:
"If they did lose salvation, then you would have to prove they had salvation to begin with and you would also have to prove that something is more powerful then GOD and is therefore able to pluck HIS children out from HIS hand (John 10:28-29)."

drfuss: The OSAS believers continue to use this verse without including verse 27, "My sheep listen to My voice, I know them, and they follow Me". You take verses 28 & 29 out of context. If you listen to His voice and follow Him, you are continuing to trust Christ. Continuing to trust Christ is the criteria for applying verses 28 & 29. The implication is that if you stop trusting Christ, you are no longer His sheep as far as verses 28 & 29 are concerned.

I know, OSAS Christians have been taught for many years that these are OSAS verses; and they will continue believing these are OSAS verses regardless of how many times the context is pointed out to them.

Thanks for the quote.........

 

[AAA]

What relevance does this question have with what I asked?

If someone could not name anyone that was saved, would this mean that the Bible does not teach that people can be saved?

I could also ask you if you could name anyone that appeared to be saved, but turned out to be "never saved to begin with"?

By the way, if you give Judas as an example, I am sure you already know that others will argue that one possibility with him is that he was saved and then fell from grace.

It does me no good to keep on repeating myself...........

Thanks for all your comments....

 

[AAA]

When did Adam "The son of God" according to Luke 3:38 become "uncreated"?? "unborn"?? "unson"??

Now back to scripture.

Let's start with Matt 18 and forgiveness revoked in that chapter alone OSAS is debunked.

then go to John 15 - branches cast out of the vine of Christ - in that one chapter alone OSAS is debunked.

Then go to Romans 11 and the reference to those who like the Jews would be removed from Christ and yet Christ is "able to graft them in again IF THEY do not CONTINUE in unbelief" - in that chapter ALONE OSAS is debunked.

Shall I go on - or is this enough to start some Bible interest in the "inconvenient facts" of scripture?

One more point - "assurance of salvation" is not based on games you play in your mind about "people being unborn". According to Rom 8:16 it is a literal transaction and objective confirmaiton "The Spirit bears WITNESS with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God".

Talking yourself into something is not the point. In Matt 7 we see the vast majority "convinced" that they are saved when they are not.

In Christ,

Bob

Thanks for your comment....

Adam was not a BORN AGAIN child of GOD that lost his salvation....

Can you name me someone else that did?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Does this belong on the Joke board????????

LOL

Wierd, isn't it???

Paul's great logical proof of OSAS gets misunderstood
by illogical people:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were
once inlightned, and haue tasted of the heauenly
gift, and were made partakers of the holy Ghost,
5 And haue tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come;
6 If they shall fall away, to renue them
againe vnto repentance: seeing they crucifie
to themselues the Sonne of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.

Yep, counting a Reducto Absurdum
backwards It is impossible to get unsaved once you are saved.

Salvation seems to me to be one of the most important
subjects that God likes -- He sure put it in his Bible a lot of times.

Un-Saved might make some sense.

But what is the plan of Un-Salvation?

How does UN-BORN-AGAIN work?

How does one get cut out of the Body of Christ?

How does one get cut out of the Bride of Christ?

How does one get UNREDEEMED?
(redeemed is a slavery term. That is when you sell one
kid into

How do you get un-adopted from the family of God?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Why is it that we are not staying on the subject of this thread?

There are two ways to get to OSAS:

1. from the error of Calvinism

2. from the truth of the Bible: Jesus Saves

I'm not at all sure if #2 is ON SUBJECT that
#1 is NOT ON SUBJECT.

 

[AAA]

alright - here's how i view this OSAS deal. if that's what you want to call it.
..........

i don't believe that once you know someone - that you can just choose NOT to know them. it's not possible.

for example - you meet a friend and you get to know them real good for the next two years.

then something happens and you decide to "un-know" them... it just doesn't work. you still will know that person even if you don't want to.
..........

BUT. there is always the possiblity (and this is scriptural) of not being friends or having relations with that person at all. you can "deny" that person any relations with you.

just like that one verse says "if we deny Him, He will deny us before His Father" (something like that).

i believe that people who were once christians - can't become atheists. it's not possible.

BUT i do believe that people who were once christians can go away and deny Christ - deny that he ever rose from the dead etc. etc. -- to turn away from Christ and go to other 'gods' - other religions.

and it's in that case where i would look at that person and not see Christ - in other words - they wouldn't be christians. because they've turned away and gone astray to other gods. false gods.

..........

i believe this because it's exactly what has happened to my dad.

my dad was once a very strong christian.
then he got into researching judaism (he blames it on the lack of power within the churches these days) - and turned over to judeaism (sp? haha)

i know for a fact that he's not a christian now. he's denied Christ and all that He is. and has turned over to orthodox Judaism.
..........

that is the only way where i can see how somebody can lose salvation.
"if it's able to be gained - it's possible to be lost" or something like that.

but i don't believe that somebody can go from knowing God to not-knowing God. not possible - not logical.

God bless - peace.

How do you know a false convert from a true one and when has someone lost their salvation?

 

[AAA]

Bob, I'm not sure what you mean here. Romans 8:16 sounds like it could be used to confirm OSAS. Is that what you mean?

It sure does confirm the security of the believer...........

 

[AAA]

Thanks..N/T

 

[AAA]

That was a pretty impressive list sir.

In Christ,

Bob

Knowledge is good, but wisdom is better............

 

[AAA]

LOL....n/t

 

[AAA]

:laugh: :laugh:

Well put!

Ed

I thought so too..................

 

[AAA]

I've read verse 17 and 18 and all the rest.

You might do well to read the Greek, or at least look at an etymological history of the word and see what it meant when the KJV translators use it: It means "judge".

Condemn is κατακρίνω, which is not used by John. The verb κρίνω means, originally, to separate. Homer used it of Ceres separating the grain from the chaff (“Iliad,” v. 501). Therefore, it means to distinguish, to pick out, to be of opinion, to judge.

The Messiah does judge the world as Jesus taught (see Matthew 25:31 and John 5:27), but this was not the primary or the only purpose of his coming.

Now, back to John 3:16:

If I read you correctly, you believe in salvational security. So do I. And, I don't think there are exceptions. If there are, then there are contradictions in Scripture (which there are none) and if there are contradictions, the Bible is worthless.

But, if you apply "perish" to going to the lake of fire forever, which is what I assume you mean by "hell", then there's a problem. It says that those who are believing (present, active, participle) might not perish (subjunctive). What happens if they stop believing? They might perish. It also says that those who are believing (remember, present, active) might (subjunctive; might not) have life aionian.

Another problem is that in order to perish, you have to have life to begin with. A dead person cannot die; only a living person can. Unsaved people are already dead.

So, how does this fit in with security?

will they ever answer.....

 

[AAA]

Heavenly Pilgrim

Hi Heavenly Pilgrim,

To address the Scripture you quoted...when you look at verses 7-11 you see the writer of Hebrews is asking the reader to respond and not fall away. As for the word "brethren", it is not a reference to Christians. This writer refers to Christians as "holy brethren".
Look at v.1.

"Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling...

v.12 is written to fellow Jews. If they reject Christianity, they will be departing from God.


HP,

First I'd like to say I'm happy to read of your commitment and love for each other. It's refreshing to hear in this day and age. How long have you been married?

I don't think that your analogy works, imho. I am incredibly, happily married to my Godly wife, but the covenant I have with her is between two human beings and will last as long as our physical bodies do.
My covenant with God will last for eternity.

Take care

Amen.....well put....n/t

 

[AAA]

ccdnt: //I see many warnings in Scripture against
falling away. I see conditional statements regarding
salvation... (if/then). //

I get tired of answering this over and over and over.
Figure out how to use Google for a search
(the ADVANCED opition lets you put in a
specific board to check /use baptistboard.com/ ).

If you Google:
"Ed Edwards" site:baptistboard.com
tonight (19 Apr 2007) you get
5,760 hits. YEP, 5,760 posts since
Google went to tracking BB posts.
(some are already missing, so use
CACHED - Google keeps posts longer
than BB does???)


Here is Ed's definition of OSAS (once saved, always
saved):

Joh 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world,
that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

OSAS means what ever 'everlasting life' means.

OSAS is about the FIDELITY of God;
not the pirfidy of humans.

the warnings in the bible is not that we can lose our salvation.....

I hope they will understand this truth....

 

[AAA]

This bears repeating since no one had addressed it:

Those that believe the Bible teaches OSAS believe that those that believe it teaches otherwise are mistaken. Why would anyone want the Bible to not teach OSAS? I would venture a guess that some or most that do not believe in OSAS would like for it to be true (if not for themselves, then for loved ones that they have seen profess to be a Christian, show fruit, then fall away and die in that state). I do not read the Bible and do my best to find that it does not teach OSAS. I read it to find what it does teach about salvation. If I thought that OSAS was what was taught in Scripture, I would proclaim this, teach this, and defend it. However, from all that I have read, I do not see this. I see many warnings in Scripture against falling away. I see conditional statements regarding salvation... (if/then). I understand why people would want OSAS to be the correct teaching, but, for those that believe in OSAS, why would you think people would not want the Bible to teach OSAS?

thanks 4 the repeat..n/t