Yos can't lose salvation!

[drfuss]

Oasis writes:
"My point, made in my post, was that regardless of Peter's failures he could not lose his salvation because it was not his to lose."

drfuss: Oasis, we still are not talking about the same thing. I am not talking about "Losing your salvation"; I was talking about "forfeiting your salvation". I came from an AOG church about 14 years ago, which tends to believe you can lose your salvation although they are not that definitive on the issue. Even though I was going to an SBC church which believes in OSAS, I changed to believing one can forfeit their salvation, but not lose it. Obviously I looked into OSAS, but the scripture support is not there. Note that going to an SBC church, it would be much easier for me to accept OSAS, but to me the scripture does not support it.

BTW, I have never attended a church that believes one can forfeit their salvation, but not lose it. I came to that conclusion completely on my own based only on scripture. Just recently, I found that is what the Free-Will Baptist believes, but I have never attended a FW Baptists church.

Oasis, when you changed from the COC belief to the OSAS belief, did you consider the belief that a Christian can forfeit their salvation, but not lose it?

Did you only consider OSAS?

 

[AAA]

Thanks>>n/t

Drfuss: //IMHO, that scripture does not support OSAS,
and implies a conflict with OSAS. As I said
in a previous post, OSAS Christians have been told
and used this scripture as supporting OSAS
for so long, that they have trouble stepping back
and considerings another interpretation.//

That is so NEW AGE
It is in the spirit of PC = politically correct.
Why don't YOU step back and reconsider???

PC says: It is good to be seeking the truth;
but if you ever find the Truth: you will be
immediately labeled a BIGOT.

Well I've found out that the truth isn't some
warm/fuzzy makin' idear -- Truth is a person:
the person of Jesus, the Messiah.

BTW please join me this week celebrating my 55th
Second Birth anniversery. Yep, April 1952 was
when I first confessed Jesus as my Lord which
believing in my heart that God raised Him from the
dead. Then Jesus became my Savior as well as my
Lord. Amen! Praise Jesus \o/ \o/

ccdnt: // As long as we continue to have faith in Jesus,
we remain secure in Christ.//

As long as we remain secure in Christ, we
continue to have faith in Jesus.

Yhanks....N/T

 

[AAA]

Ed,

Verse please - "lose reward" :saint:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Is reward the same thing a eternal life?

NO, of coarse not....

 

[AAA]

Here is a 'NOT LOSE' verse:

Mark 9:41 (KJV1611 Edition):
For whosoeuer shall giue you a cup of water
to drinke in my Name, because yee belong
to Christ: Uerily I say vnto you, he
shall not lose his reward.

Kinda proves OSAS, eh?

Does reward mean salvation?

And if it does, then, how was this reward (salvation) earned?

Salvation is by GRACE, not of men's works............

 

[AAA]

HP: In between or underneath which words or lines is the penumbral presupposition of OSAS established?

Good point! N/T

 

[AAA]

Thanks GOD that we are secure in Christ!

 

[AAA]

In Matt 7 it is "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but those that DO the will of the Father".

In Romans 2 it is "NOT the hearers but the DOERS"

In John 3:16 it is "those that BELIEVE"

In Romans 11 it is the warning to "FEAR for you only stand by your faith"...

In Matt 18 it is "forgiveness revoked"

It is impossible to simply turn a blind eye to all of these texts to cling to OSAS "anyway".

In Christ,

Bob

We do not CLING to a men made teaching, but we cling to GOD that teaches us through HIS HOLY SPIRIT that we are SECURE in Christ and that we can NEVER lose our salvation, because salvation is by GRACE and not of OUR works......AMEN!

 

[AAA]

Post 84

Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Cahpter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots o time -- but if you do not nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.

The bible never controdicts itself even though our interpretations my do so....

The BIBLE teaches us that we can NEVER lose our salvation...........

 

[AAA]

How can one fall away from a position they were never in? A person that was never saved to begin with was never in Christ; therefore, how could the person fall away from Christ?

Luke 8:13 - "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away - [saying they "believe" implies that these are people who do become believers (Christians) but it does not last since it says they "fall away"].

Hebrews 3:12;14 - Take care, brethren - [again, referring to believers], - that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. - [why warn these people of the possibility of them getting an evil, unbelieving heart and of falling away if it would be impossible for them to do so?]

14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, - [the word, "if", means that it is possible that a believer could not hold fast in which case, as this says, the person will no longer be a partaker of Christ]

Hebrews 6:4-6 - 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away - [addressing believers and says that they can fall away], - it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2 Peter 3:17 - You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, - [context implies that believers are being addressed - they cannot fall from their own steadfastness unless they are in a position to fall from steadfastness in the first place]



First of all, as has been said time and time again, it is not about losing salvation. It is about forfeiting salvation, willingly leaving Christ, etc.

Secondly, they were not “plucked” (pulled away). They chose to leave the Father’s hand.

Once again the OP is dealing with the people that believe that they can lose thier salvation......

 

[AAA]

HP: Why the great impetus on the words ‘born again?’ The question is simply can one be right with God, be a child of God in a right relationship with Him, and forfeit that relationship due to selfishness as opposed to benevolence. The picture you paint of the relationship that exists between man and God is about as loving as the relationship a rock has for a rock hound. You have stripped man of the very essence of love, without which love is non existent. If man can do nothing other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances, no choice can be said to be involved. The relationship sustained between God and man according to you is none other than that of necessity. Love can only be sustained when there is a real possibility of one doing something other than what they are doing, but still willingly and voluntarily choosing to act in benevolence towards the other.

By the way, no man has gained salvation in its final sense that is still alive in this world today. If we could, no man could walk by faith. No man can lose what he has not gained in its final sense. You may lose your assurance, or you may forfeit your privilege to be called a son of God, but no man can lose what they have yet to realize in finality.

We are clearly in a state of probation in this present world. To ask whether or not we can lose our salvation is not even a proper question and does not speak to the reality of our relationship with God and our acceptance of that relationship by faith as it in reality exists in this present world.

O.K. N/T

 

[AAA]

drfuss

Hi drfuss,

My point, made in my post, was that regardless of Peter's failures he could not lose his salvation because it was not his to lose.

You know druss, I couldn't tell you what a Wesley Arminian is. When I came to my understanding of OSAS, I thought Calvin had a companion named Hobbs; I only knew that Wesley was a great hymn writer; and Luther's last name was Vandross. It's wonderful to study these men's opinions and read the history of the church, but it's also sad that these days most discussions revolve more around men like these than Scripture itself. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here. It's just a general observation.

Maybe it will help to give you a mini bio of me. I was born and raised in a "work to gain it" religion that thought every religion except theirs was going to hell. After 30 years of believing that baptism saved me; human failings condemned me; there was no rapture; and there would be no tribulation or millenial reign of Jesus Christ; I gave up. There was no human way to save myself, or do enough on my own to make it to the end. If you haven't already made a good guess....Non-insturmental church of christ.

Three years later I had just opened my first business and I knew something was missing in my life. So, I pulled out my Bible and during slow times I started reading and studying on my own. Man were my eyes opened! I was studying free from the bonds of cofc tradition/doctrine. One of my regular customers kept inviting me to his church...a Southern Baptist Church no less. I'd heard some about them. Cofc preachers loved to rail against Baptists of any kind.

I'll cut to the chase. I visited that congregation. Over time I realized that they believed what I'd already found out just by studying on my own and letting Scripture speak without man helping. I now knew what Grace and faith meant, and had found a group of people that agreed with Scripture said about it too. At age 33 I went forward and for the first and last time genuinely gave my life to Christ. When I went forward, I was not a believer in OSAS. It was two years of studying on my own before I became convicted that I had been mistaught and I finally came to an understanding of what perseverence of the Saints truly meant. It is and always has been a much misunderstood subject. Much of the misunderstanding, imho, lies in man's inability to completely give himself to Christ. So in answer to your statement immediately below...I spent 30 years believing another interpretation.

To quote another Luther...Martin Luther...
"Free at last! Free at last! Free at last! Thank God I'm free at last!



No where in Scripture does it say a Christian can stop trusting Christ. His keeping power is perfect even though we aren't.

"No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nore any powers(btw, that includes us ), neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."(emphasis mine)-Romans 8:37-39 NIV
Have a great day drfuss!:godisgood:

Good point about peter never losing his salvation......

 

[AAA]

Poor question. You are trying to make me figure out
things just like Calvin. I ain't Calvin, I'm Ed and I'm
a Baptist - I'll be different from Calvin just to prove
I'm a Baptist

I've already explained it as best I can:





Poor question. It doesn't matter wheather there is
a list or not a list - here is how you know you are saved
(and thus must have been on the saved list).

Rom 10:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth
the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart,
that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saued.

What kind of english is spelled like that ?

Is that really how the word used to be spelled in 1611?

 

[AAA]

HP: This is an excellent observation drfuss. It is indeed worthy to be brought to the attention of the list again.

It would appear to me that one would be correct in saying that this passage taken in context indicates clearly that ‘continuing to trust’ is indeed a condition of our salvation.........as other texts bear out as well.

Which goes along with JOHN 3:16....The word believeth is in the present active tense..........

Now can a christian stop believing?

 

[AAA]

HP: That is indeed a wonderful and simple passage.

Did you notice there was not man made works in that passage....

Salvation is by GRACE...Eoh. 2:8-9...

 

[AAA]

If you are saved, then you will continue to follow Jesus.

If you are saved, then you will continue
to trust Jesus.

Jesus saves. Your following Jesus doesn't save you;
Jesus saves you. Your trusting Jesus doesn't save you;
Jesus saves you. Jesus saves.

AMEN....

God does indeed save by HIS GRACE....

A christian believes, BUT a christain does NOT earn his salvation by that belief....

 

[AAA]

HP: That has some truth to it. It would be better stated, ‘If one has a sure hope of eternal life, such a one will indeed follow Jesus.’



HP: It would be better stated, ‘If one continues with a full assurance of their hope of eternal life, they will indeed be found continuing trusting in Jesus, and walking in obedience to His commands.’




HP: While that is indeed true, it is also true that no one will be saved without following Jesus.



HP: While this as well is true, it is equally true that unless you continue to trust Jesus you will not be saved.



HP: Indeed He does and will, IF ye continue to the end in obedience and love towards God and your fellowman, testified to by having a conscience void of offense towards God and ones fellowman. “Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”

Why does a person "continue" in HIS word? It is because they are HIS sheep and they will NOT follow another...........They do NOT continue because they are trying to earn thier salvation...........

 

[AAA]

And you are correct -- sorry I was "beating a dead horse." I think most of us agree that a believer cannot "lose" his/her salvation.

JDale

AMEN...N/T

 

[AAA]

I agree that there are people that profess to be Christians but are not saved and were never saved to begin with, but this does not negate that a person that is currently a believer can choose to turn away from Christ. Scripture warns against falling away (as I have cited already).



To "pluck" something out is to pull it out. How can a person "pluck" (pull) himself out from something? Someone else/some other thing could pull a person away from something. God says that no one can pluck those that are saved out of His hand, and that is true. This says nothing about believers choosing to willingly move out of His hand.

o.k....N/T

 

[Ed Edwards]

What kind of english is spelled like that ?

Is that really how the word used to be spelled in 1611?

Yep.

Here is the 23rd Psalm:

Psa 23:1-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
[A Psalme of Dauid.]
The Lord is my shepheard, I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie downe
in greene pastures: he leadeth mee
beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soule: he leadeth me
in the pathes of righteousnes,
for his names sake.
4 Yea though I walke through the valley
of the shadowe of death, I will feare no euill:
for thou art with me,
thy rod and thy staffe, they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me,
in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oyle,
my cuppe runneth ouer.
6 Surely goodnes and mercie shall followe me
all the daies of my life: and I will dwell
in the house of the Lord for euer.

For frequent quotes see:

Daily Reading the KJV1611 Edition

at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31304&page=12

 

[BobRyan]

See this post on this thread by someone who knows the truth about this subject --
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=996227&postcount=42

A "must read" for all Bible believing Christians!

How can one fall away from a position they were never in? A person that was never saved to begin with was never in Christ; therefore, how could the person fall away from Christ?

Luke 8:13 - "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away - [saying they "believe" implies that these are people who do become believers (Christians) but it does not last since it says they "fall away"[/quote ].

Hebrews 3:12;14 - Take care, brethren - [again, referring to believers], - that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. - [why warn these people of the possibility of them getting an evil, unbelieving heart and of falling away if it would be impossible for them to do so?]

What great points sir!

Excellent Bible study - wonderful logic, rock solid scriptural position.

What a great Bible survey LEADING IN to Heb 6!!

Thanks to CCDNT for that post.

Thanks to AAA for not letting that post get lost!!

CCDNT
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, - [the word, "if", means that it is possible that a believer could not hold fast in which case, as this says, the person will no longer be a partaker of Christ]


Hebrews 6:4-6 - 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away - [addressing believers and says that they can fall away], - it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2 Peter 3:17 - You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, - [context implies that believers are being addressed - they cannot fall from their own steadfastness unless they are in a position to fall from steadfastness in the first place]

Home Run!

Point! Game! Set! Match!

Well done!

in Christ,

Bob