Yos can't lose salvation!

[ccdnt]

Ccdnt: //Initially having faith in Christ is not a work, but continuing to have faith is? - Why?//

I certainly didn't claim that.

Let me speak clearer:

Initial Faith is a good work. Salvation by initial faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal initial faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that initial faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Continuing Faith is a good work.
Salvation by continuing faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that continuing faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Without initial faith, the person would not have salvation. Jesus does do all the saving, but we must respond to Him. If we do not come to Jesus, He will not save us. I believe Scripture says we must continue to have faith in Jesus, abide in Jesus, not fall away, etc. (I gave some Scripture a while back) As long as we continue to have faith in Jesus, we remain secure in Christ.

 

[drfuss]

Quote:
drfuss: The OSAS believers continue to use this verse without including verse 27, "My sheep listen to My voice, I know them, and they follow Me". You take verses 28 & 29 out of context. If you listen to His voice and follow Him, you are continuing to trust Christ. Continuing to trust Christ is the criteria for applying verses 28 & 29. The implication is that if you stop trusting Christ, you are no longer His sheep as far as verses 28 & 29 are concerned.

Oasis writes:

Hi drfuss,

v.27"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me"
True Christians listen to His voice, He knows who we are, and because we are true Christians we will follow Him.

Just like countless examples throughout Scripture, I will fail because I am human, but I will never fall because Jesus Christ isn't. The Grace that was good enough to save me, is good enough to keep me.

Want one of many examples of human failure? Look at Peter. He was Mr. "foot in mouth". I can identify with him.:laugh: He could be hot and cold; bold and weak; all in the same 60 seconds. Remember in Matthew 16:23? Jesus rebuked him saying,
"Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
Just 7 verses before, Peter was saying,
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."-v.16
Look at Peter in Matthew 26 where Peter denies Christ three times as Christ said he would. But then after that the man became an unstopable teacher of Christ.

Peter is a walking rollercoaster, but he never jumped the tracks. Christ wouldn't let him. Peter's conscience as a true believer wouldn't let him.
Why? Go to Luke 22:31-32 where on the night He was betrayed, Christ tells Peter he's going to mess up.
"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you Simon, that your faith may not fail."
Peter failed, but his faith was never derailed.

The Lord's prayers for our faith do not go unheard. Look at Christ's intercession for us throughout Scripture.
In John 17:15-23 He prays that we will persevere in the faith.
In Hebrews 7:25 what does it say?
"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him because he always lives to intercede for them." The KJV translates the verse: "He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him..."

In my favorite chapter in Scripture, Romans 8, Paul caps my thoughts on this. Remember, Paul had just finished talking about his miserable failings in chapter 7.
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."-Romans 8:28-29
Here's the meat of this passage:
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."-v.30

We are spiritually glorified the moment we are justified; saved to the uttermost. It's incredible; it's baffling; but it's wonderfully true!...and not because of any of our doing, but whose?

"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."-Jude 24-25

We persevere when we allow Christ to work through us, and when Christ is in us we can not fail. He is the perfect keeper."


drfuss: Oasis, I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I said nothing about failing the Lord. I do believe your comments reflect the tendency of many OSAS believers to broad brush anyone who does not agree with OSAS as a Wesley Arminian or even a Catholic (good works).

I was only talking about a Christian who makes a decision to stop trusting Christ as Savior, i.e. forfeiting his salvation. If someone stops trusting Christ by deciding to forfeit his salvation, he forfeits being his sheep.

Now if the scripture said: "My sheep listens to My voice, I know them, and they cannot stop trusting in Me", then OSAS would be established. But no where in scripture does it say a Christian can not stop trusting Christ.

IMHO, that scripture does not support OSAS, and implies a conflict with OSAS. As I said in a previous post, OSAS Christians have been told and used this scripture as supporting OSAS for so long, that they have trouble stepping back and considerings another interpretation.

 

[ccdnt]

Did they "fall away" ,because they (false converts: 1JN. 2:19) were NEVER in the faith?

How can one fall away from a position they were never in? A person that was never saved to begin with was never in Christ; therefore, how could the person fall away from Christ?

Luke 8:13 - "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away - [saying they "believe" implies that these are people who do become believers (Christians) but it does not last since it says they "fall away"].

Hebrews 3:12;14 - Take care, brethren - [again, referring to believers], - that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. - [why warn these people of the possibility of them getting an evil, unbelieving heart and of falling away if it would be impossible for them to do so?]

14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, - [the word, "if", means that it is possible that a believer could not hold fast in which case, as this says, the person will no longer be a partaker of Christ]

Hebrews 6:4-6 - 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away - [addressing believers and says that they can fall away], - it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2 Peter 3:17 - You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, - [context implies that believers are being addressed - they cannot fall from their own steadfastness unless they are in a position to fall from steadfastness in the first place]

Did they "fall away", because they lost their salvation? If. so, how then were they plucked from the Father's hand?

First of all, as has been said time and time again, it is not about losing salvation. It is about forfeiting salvation, willingly leaving Christ, etc.

Secondly, they were not “plucked” (pulled away). They chose to leave the Father’s hand.

 

[AAA]

Amen, AAA -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

Thanks!.................

 

[AAA]

My father in law used to preach on the C.B. radio as a truck driver................

I am not to sure if anyone gave thier life to Christ or if they debated these kinds of subjects..............lol

 

[AAA]

HP: A very telling verse indeed. Possibly your original post could stand to be updated or edited in light of the passage you quote?

We do need to explain our position futher somtimes...........

Context????????

 

[JDale]

Agreed......One can be an apostastate...However:

If a so-called christian ever loses thier salvation, then, we have to ask ourselves: Was this person ever saved to begin with?

Just curious, Is this what they teach at Northside Baptist Church, West Columbia, South Carolina ?

I have heard some Free Will Baptist believe that they can lose their salvation as well.

I was raised SBC and they believe as I do: We can never lose our salvation........

With respect, AAA:

Please, refrain from saying that I contend a believer can ever "lose" salvation. That is not accurate. I believe in the POSSIBILITY of apostasy -- that a believer can cease to believe and thereby forfeit salvation. The terminolgy makes ALL the difference on this particular issue.... Practically, whether one "firfeits" salvation or was never saved in the first place, I will treat them as if they've never been saved, because there is no security in sin. On a practical level, we are dealing with shades od semantics, I believe. However, on a doctrinal level, there are real differences....

I was raised, and saved, in the Southern Baptist Church. I, however, never agreed with concept of OSAS as an "unconditional truth or reality. After I graduted from College, I entered ministry in the SBC -- but God led me into the FWB Church, where I was an ordained preacher for over 17 years, before leaving that denomination behind.

My wife and I are now members of Northside Baptist Church in West Columbia, SC, and are happy there. In answer to your question, no, Northside Baptist Church is a doctrinally traditional SBC, generally rejecting the TULIP Calvinism of some in the SBC today, but they hold fast to the OSAS doctrine as do most SBCer's. Oh, and yes, several of the Pastor's at Northside are aware of my "deviation" from the SBC doctrinal norm

I am ordained through ECA International -- a fellowship of evangelical ministers that helps people get credentialed for the ministry they are called to -- a number of BGEA associates, including Josh McDowell, hold papers in the ECA.

I hope this explains where I'm coming from...

JDale

 

[AAA]

Ccdnt: //Initially having faith in Christ is not a work, but continuing to have faith is? - Why?//

I certainly didn't claim that.

Let me speak clearer:

Initial Faith is a good work. Salvation by initial faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal initial faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that initial faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Continuing Faith is a good work.
Salvation by continuing faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that continuing faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Ccdnt: // (Also, I never said that one must be baptized to be saved) //

I never claimed you did. Come on ??? there are 100s of
readers and only a few posters. I'm posting to all the
readers, not just the noisy one(s).

You are so right! :thumbs:

 

[AAA]

thanks...n/t

With respect, AAA:

Please, refrain from saying that I contend a believer can ever "lose" salvation. That is not accurate. I believe in the POSSIBILITY of apostasy -- that a believer can cease to believe and thereby forfeit salvation. The terminolgy makes ALL the difference on this particular issue.... Practically, whether one "firfeits" salvation or was never saved in the first place, I will treat them as if they've never been saved, because there is no security in sin. On a practical level, we are dealing with shades od semantics, I believe. However, on a doctrinal level, there are real differences....

I was raised, and saved, in the Southern Baptist Church. I, however, never agreed with concept of OSAS as an "unconditional truth or reality. After I graduted from College, I entered ministry in the SBC -- but God led me into the FWB Church, where I was an ordained preacher for over 17 years, before leaving that denomination behind.

My wife and I are now members of Northside Baptist Church in West Columbia, SC, and are happy there. In answer to your question, no, Northside Baptist Church is a doctrinally traditional SBC, generally rejecting the TULIP Calvinism of some in the SBC today, but they hold fast to the OSAS doctrine as do most SBCer's. Oh, and yes, several of the Pastor's at Northside are aware of my "deviation" from the SBC doctrinal norm

I am ordained through ECA International -- a fellowship of evangelical ministers that helps people get credentialed for the ministry they are called to -- a number of BGEA associates, including Josh McDowell, hold papers in the ECA.

I hope this explains where I'm coming from...

JDale

Thanks...........

 

[AAA]

that funny......

lets try to keep on the topic.......lol

 

[AAA]

HP: What kindness you emit in you post. (Not)

I simply asked a pertinent question. I would guess that you do not have the foggiest what I believe concerning the issue. By the way, I don’t beat horses, dead or alive.

What do you believe concerning this issue?

 

[AAA]

i know i have an assurance of salvation - i know that at the time i be pushin up daisies - that i'll be with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

but i also know the following - what i posted before:



God bless.

AMEN!

We can "KNOW" that we are saved....1 JOHN ch.5..........

 

[AAA]

That a "born again" person can CEASE to trust in Christ and turn from the faith he/she once held is a Scriptural POSSIBILITY (Heberws 6:4-6; 10:26-31). JDale

I do understand that you do NOT believe that you can lose your salvation and you say: a christian can forfeit his/her salvation, because there is a BIG difference in the two...

The OP is dealing with the subject of lost of salvation, not if we can forfeit salvation or NOT..............

 

[AAA]

HP: Yet another convenient twist you are suggesting. Are you now suggesting that only one born again is a true child of God and cannot be plucked from God's hand? If so, where is your support for that assertion?

My point was that ADAM was NOT a BORN AGAIN CHILD of GOD, before he sinned and we can NOT use him as an example of a BORN AGIAN child of GOD that lost thier salvation....

Can you name a BORN-AGAIN child of GOD that lost HIS/HER salvation?

 

[AAA]

This is a very good point...

I hope that the HOLY SPIRIT will lead us and teach us all truth...

 

[AAA]

This does NOT prove that we can lose our salvation, because we are secure in Christ!

 

[Oasis]

AAA

My point was that ADAM was NOT a BORN AGAIN CHILD of GOD, before he sinned and we can NOT use him as an example of a BORN AGIAN child of GOD that lost thier salvation....

Can you name a BORN-AGAIN child of GOD that lost HIS/HER salvation?

Hi AAA,

Good question.
I know I can't, and Scripture doesn't.

:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AAA: Can you name a BORN-AGAIN child of GOD that lost HIS/HER salvation?

HP: Why the great impetus on the words ‘born again?’ The question is simply can one be right with God, be a child of God in a right relationship with Him, and forfeit that relationship due to selfishness as opposed to benevolence. The picture you paint of the relationship that exists between man and God is about as loving as the relationship a rock has for a rock hound. You have stripped man of the very essence of love, without which love is non existent. If man can do nothing other than what he does under the very same set of circumstances, no choice can be said to be involved. The relationship sustained between God and man according to you is none other than that of necessity. Love can only be sustained when there is a real possibility of one doing something other than what they are doing, but still willingly and voluntarily choosing to act in benevolence towards the other.

By the way, no man has gained salvation in its final sense that is still alive in this world today. If we could, no man could walk by faith. No man can lose what he has not gained in its final sense. You may lose your assurance, or you may forfeit your privilege to be called a son of God, but no man can lose what they have yet to realize in finality.

We are clearly in a state of probation in this present world. To ask whether or not we can lose our salvation is not even a proper question and does not speak to the reality of our relationship with God and our acceptance of that relationship by faith as it in reality exists in this present world.

 

[BobRyan]

My point was that ADAM was NOT a BORN AGAIN CHILD of GOD, before he sinned and we can NOT use him as an example of a BORN AGIAN child of GOD that lost thier salvation....

Can you name a BORN-AGAIN child of GOD that lost HIS/HER salvation?

The born again child of God is infected with the sinFUL nature "still" as we see in Romans 7.

Adam "the son of God" (Luke 3) was NOT infected with that sinFUL nature and SITLL he chose to sin.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

AMEN!

We can "KNOW" that we are saved....1 JOHN ch.5..........

Consistent Arminian can KNOW that he is saved today - but can not know that TEN years from today he will continue to persevere and remains saved.

The 5 point Calvinist can not even know that much.

In Christ,

Bob