Yos can't lose salvation!

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: T Total depravity
U Unconditional election
L Limited atonement
I Irresistible grace
P Perseverance of the saints

I don't believe 'I Irresistible Grace' is not
correct &/or misunderstood. A person doesn't know
if they are on God's pre-saved list.

HP: If a person is on God’s pre-saved list, are you suggesting that one can resist the Holy Spirit and fool God, or possibly God’s list is ever in flux? Now it would sem logical to men, that if one starts from the presupposition of God having a pre-saved list, one would of necessity have to believe in irresistible grace.

ED: The only way people can tell
if another person is saved is if they both get to
Heaven.

HP: What about us? How can we know with absolute certainty that we are on a pre-saved list?

ED: 'P' is correct, once a person received God's Saving
Grace, it will NOT be withdrawn.

HP: Before you can settle this, it would be logical to nail down this pre-saved list theory. If you cannot do anything to lose something, I would say that is rather irresistible, wouldn’t you?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JDale: A Reformed Arminian more closely relates theologically to the position of Arminius himself, rather than to the "Wesleyan-Arminian" view.

Arminius held that Total Depravity as Calvinists understood it was essentially correct.

HP: If you are suggesting that the WA would feel differently than the Calvinist or the RA on total depravity, what would you see as the distinctions between them?

JDale: However, He also held to a Conditional Election (FAITH being the condition), a General Atonement, the Resistiblility of Grace, and the Possibility of Apostasy.

HP:I suppose I would like to ask Arminius, or any that say they believe like him, how a dead log floating down a stream, that has to wait on God to offer them grace, receives the ability to resist that offer having no ability but to sin and that continually. Does God grant to these dead creatures the ability to resist and accept His offer of grace? That would appear to me to be a strange grace, grace to resist God. It would appear to me to be sort of self-defeating? Let’s say that one is granted the grace to resist. What difference would that make?? They were lost without hope before due to nothing they personally had done, and then in that dead state are given an obviously overpowering influence to resist God’s grace, to what avail? Before grace they were simply dead. Now having received grace they can now resist the cure? Such a one believing this still has the question to answer how God can hold them responsible for any sin, let alone punish them eternally when they were born into a state that rendered them helpless to be any thing other than what they are, sinners.

Would not this enabling grace granted to the sinner seem a bit like handing someone that has been tarred, feathered, and without hope due to no fault of his own, a bucket of tar and a bushel of feathers to assure him that he will remain that way?

 

[AAA]

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away[/b]; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Rom 11:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, [b]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

[/QUOTE]

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

Rom 11:
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.[/b]



They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

Rom11:
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.



God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

All of this still does NOT prove that we can lose (be plucked from the FATHER's hand) our salvation...........


We are secure in CHRIST!

 

[AAA]

When did Adam "The son of God" according to Luke 3:38 become "uncreated"?? "unborn"?? "unson"??

Before Adam sinned, he was never a BORN AGIAN child of GOD...

The context is.....

When does a BORN AGIAN child of GOD become unborn?

Adam does not apply here..............

 

[AAA]

I think the question is, how do we reconcile the verses that ccdnt posted with the verses that say we are secure? We can't just ignore the verses like the one posted above.

It is NOT how we reconcile the verses...

It is what the bible says that is most important....

look at the context........

 

[AAA]

Ed
Excellent insight Ed.:thumbs:

I like what John MacArthur says about perseverence:
"Perseverence means that those who have true faith can lose that faith neither totally nor finally. It echoes God's promise through Jeremiah:
'I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.'"(emphasis added)

I am secure in the promises of God, and one of those promises is that He will give me the strength to persevere.:godisgood:

And no one can pluck us from the Father's hand..............

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AAA: Adam does not apply here

HP: Now that is a self-serving easy to make comment, but can you tell us why not?

 

[AAA]

HP: Now that is a self-serving easy to make comment, but can you tell us why not?

I have already told you......

Before Adam sinned, he was never a BORN AGIAN child of GOD...

The context is.....

When does a BORN AGIAN child of GOD become unborn?

Before Adam sinned was he a BORN AGIAN child of God with all his PAST, present, and future sins forgiven???

NO...because Adam (before he sinned) had not sinned yet and he was NOT a BORN AGIAN child of GOD..

 

[drfuss]

And no one can pluck us from the Father's hand..............

Suggest you go back and read post # 121 again.

 

[Amy.G]

It is NOT how we reconcile the verses...

It is what the bible says that is most important....

look at the context........

That was my point. The Bible is always right. It's our interpretation that gets messed up.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AAA: Before Adam sinned was he a BORN AGIAN child of God with all his PAST, present, and future sins forgiven???

NO...because Adam (before he sinned) had not sinned yet and he was NOT a BORN AGIAN child of GOD..

HP: Yet another convenient twist you are suggesting. Are you now suggesting that only one born again is a true child of God and cannot be plucked from God's hand? If so, where is your support for that assertion?

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: If a person is on God’s pre-saved list, are you suggesting that one can resist the Holy Spirit and fool God, or possibly God’s list is ever in flux?

Poor question. You are trying to make me figure out
things just like Calvin. I ain't Calvin, I'm Ed and I'm
a Baptist - I'll be different from Calvin just to prove
I'm a Baptist

I've already explained it as best I can:

I don't believe 'I Irresistible Grace' is not
correct &/or misunderstood. A person doesn't know
if they are on God's pre-saved list. They can
resist the Holy Spirit. The only way people can tell
if another person is saved is if they both get to
Heaven.

HP: What about us? How can we know with absolute certainty that we are on a pre-saved list?

Poor question. It doesn't matter wheather there is
a list or not a list - here is how you know you are saved
(and thus must have been on the saved list).

Rom 10:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth
the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart,
that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saued.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

drfuss: The OSAS believers continue to use this verse without including verse 27, "My sheep listen to My voice, I know them, and they follow Me". You take verses 28 & 29 out of context. If you listen to His voice and follow Him, you are continuing to trust Christ. Continuing to trust Christ is the criteria for applying verses 28 & 29. The implication is that if you stop trusting Christ, you are no longer His sheep as far as verses 28 & 29 are concerned.

HP: This is an excellent observation drfuss. It is indeed worthy to be brought to the attention of the list again.

It would appear to me that one would be correct in saying that this passage taken in context indicates clearly that ‘continuing to trust’ is indeed a condition of our salvation.........as other texts bear out as well.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: Rom 10:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth
the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart,
that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saued.

HP: That is indeed a wonderful and simple passage.

 

[Ed Edwards]

If you are saved, then you will continue to follow Jesus.

If you are saved, then you will continue
to trust Jesus.

Jesus saves. Your following Jesus doesn't save you;
Jesus saves you. Your trusting Jesus doesn't save you;
Jesus saves you. Jesus saves.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: If you are saved, then you will continue to follow Jesus.

HP: That has some truth to it. It would be better stated, ‘If one has a sure hope of eternal life, such a one will indeed follow Jesus.’

Ed: If you are saved, then you will continue
to trust Jesus.

HP: It would be better stated, ‘If one continues with a full assurance of their hope of eternal life, they will indeed be found continuing trusting in Jesus, and walking in obedience to His commands.’

Ed: Jesus saves. Your following Jesus doesn't save you;

HP: While that is indeed true, it is also true that no one will be saved without following Jesus.

Ed: Jesus saves you. Your trusting Jesus doesn't save you;

HP: While this as well is true, it is equally true that unless you continue to trust Jesus you will not be saved.

Ed: Jesus saves you. Jesus saves.

HP: Indeed He does and will, IF ye continue to the end in obedience and love towards God and your fellowman, testified to by having a conscience void of offense towards God and ones fellowman. “Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”

 

[AAA]

Grammar makes a difference. Most people lose sight of that, and Greek is so much more expressive and precise than English. (It's also static, which means that while our English words we use to understand the Greek may change, the Greek does not.)

Don't forget, we're told elsewhere that he knows everyone.

So, what's the context?

The context can NOT be that one can lose thier salvation, because this concept is never taught in the scripture..............

 

[Hope of Glory]

The context can NOT be that one can lose thier salvation, because this concept is never taught in the scripture..............

Oh, I agree with you completely.

However, I was trying to give you a tool to use.

Oh, and you can't simply ignore the passages that the other side is posting.

That being said, hopefully I'll be finished with work early enough to be able to spend the time with a proper reply to the previously mentioned post. Right now, I'm doing a job that I detest, and wish I had not accepted. I don't like repair work; it never looks as good as new work.

 

[Melanie]

Do you really believe that?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Do you really believe that?

Does who really believe what?