Yos can't lose salvation!

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Verse please - "lose reward" :saint:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is a 'NOT LOSE' verse:

Mark 9:41 (KJV1611 Edition):
For whosoeuer shall giue you a cup of water
to drinke in my Name, because yee belong
to Christ: Uerily I say vnto you, he
shall not lose his reward.

Kinda proves OSAS, eh?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: Mark 9:41 (KJV1611 Edition):
For whosoeuer shall giue you a cup of water
to drinke in my Name, because yee belong
to Christ: Uerily I say vnto you, he
shall not lose his reward.

Kinda proves OSAS, eh?

HP: In between or underneath which words or lines is the penumbral presupposition of OSAS established?

 

[Amy.G]

Here is a 'NOT LOSE' verse:

Mark 9:41 (KJV1611 Edition):
For whosoeuer shall giue you a cup of water
to drinke in my Name, because yee belong
to Christ: Uerily I say vnto you, he
shall not lose his reward.

Kinda proves OSAS, eh?

Ed, I usually agree with you. But, I don't think this verse proves OSAS, because there's an "if" in there.

If you give a cup of water in Jesus' name, you will not lose your reward.

The flip side of this is:

James 2
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Dead faith is worthless.

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away."

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 7 it is "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but those that DO the will of the Father".

In Romans 2 it is "NOT the hearers but the DOERS"

In John 3:16 it is "those that BELIEVE"

In Romans 11 it is the warning to "FEAR for you only stand by your faith"...

In Matt 18 it is "forgiveness revoked"

It is impossible to simply turn a blind eye to all of these texts to cling to OSAS "anyway".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away[/b]; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Rom 11:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, [b]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/quote]


They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

Rom 11:
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.[/b]



They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

Rom11:
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.



God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

 

[Ed Edwards]

ED: Mark 9:41 (KJV1611 Edition):
For whosoeuer shall giue you a cup of water
to drinke in my Name, because yee belong
to Christ: Uerily I say vnto you, he
shall not lose his reward.

Kinda proves OSAS, eh?

HP: In between or underneath which words
or lines is the penumbral presupposition
of OSAS established?

Interesting, the concept of 'presupposition'
is a PC (politically correct) term that comes
from the New Age Movement. When the
Declaration of Independence was written
the phrase was 'we hold these truths to be
self evident' (not 'presupposed', another term
for 'self evident truth' was 'axiom'.)

Now I've been a Christian for 55 years.
There is an unwritten rule When you have
been a Christian for 50 years you get to
keep your presuppositions.

Years ago I found out it is PC to search for the
truth, but if you ever find it, you are immediately
labeled 'bigot'. Sorry, I ain't going to play
the New Age/PC game. I'm keeping my
presuppositions. The truth isn't some feelie-good
statement - the Truth is a Person: and that Person
is Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, the Personal
Redeemer, the beginning and end of our Faith,
the Rock of our Salvation, etc.

One thing I see done wrong is that people make
the Presupposition: God Oopsed when He made
Free Will, so His Holy/Perfect Will can be overcome
by Free Will. Sorry, Free Will does NOT trump
God's Supreme Will. Jesus saves Eternally, not
till the first time Free Will rears it's ugly head
or the first time some frail Person oopses.

 

[Ed Edwards]

In Matt 7 it is "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but those that DO the will of the Father".

Those who speak without action haven't been saved yet.

In Romans 2 it is "NOT the hearers but the DOERS"

Those who hear but don't do haven't been saved yet.

In John 3:16 it is "those that BELIEVE"

Those who believe not are not saved.

In Romans 11 it is the warning
to "FEAR for you only stand by your faith" ...

Those in fear of loosing God's Salvation of them
are NOT standing by faith.

It is impossible to simply turn a blind eye to all of these texts to cling to OSAS "anyway".

Blind'? He is most blind who will not see.
Jesus saves. OSAS is all about the FIDELITY of God
not the PIRFIDY of humans.

 

[JDale]

1st John 2:19 is an example of false conversions...

Can you name a some of the examples?

NOTE:
You would also have to prove that they had salvation in the first place before you can prove that they lost it...

Good luck!

:laugh: Good luck huh?

Despite your obvious skepticism, let me just give a few possibilities:

(1) Hymenaeus and Alexander (I Timothy 1:19,20) - "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

(2) Demas (II Timothy 4:10) - "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica..."

(3) Judas (Acts 1:16-20; 25) - "For it is written in the book of Psalms [69:25] 'Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishophrick let another take'...That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place" (vs. 20,25).

(4) Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5) - ??? Some scholars believe this is possible...

Those are off the top of my head, but let me clarify a couple of important considerations before the bullets start to fly my way.

First, note that I said "possibilities" above -- no one KNOWS the condition of the hearts of any of these men at any one point -- and God is the ultimate judge. Reformed Arminians (at least ME) are more comfortable with uncertainty in their theological perspective than others. I BELIEVE that these men "fell," as Scripture teaches is possible in Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-31, and other passages mentioned previously on this thread. I do not KNOW as God knows -- so I'll leave that up to GOD. As I've said before, I believe in the POSSIBILITY of apostasy.

Second, There are relatively FEW examples, because RA's reject the idea that Salvation is something you turn off and on like a light switch. That cheapens God's grace and mercy. To Apostasize -- to forfeit salvation, to reject faith in Christ one once held -- is a profound and tragic consequence for which there is no remedy. It is not an everyday occurrence, and is the rare exception, NOT the rule for those who come to Christ.

JDale

 

[JDale]

1John 2:22-25 is not speaking of anyone who has forfeited their salvation. Look at the context. Verse 22 is especially important. He is speaking of antichrists. Even now there are many antichrists in the world. How can false prophets, false teachers, those who speak against Christ, those who deny the deity of Christ (the very issue that John is addressing) be a believer, or even once be a believer. I can't see how this should even enter into your mind that this passage is speaking about believers. It is written to believers warning them about what is in the world--antichrists, false teachers, those that are opposed to Christ. Where do you get the idea that these are individuals who were once saved and now have forfeited their salvation. This is an impossible position to take in light of the context.

1 John 2:22-25 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

The therefore in verse 24 indicates a conclusion from the warning of the antichrists that are in the world given in verses 22 and 23.

THe "Therefore" in verse 24 indicates a transition from speaking ABOUT OTHERS to speaking TO BELIEVERS. This is made clear in the NASB rendering of the passage: "As for you [BELIEVERS], let that abide in you which you have heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you will abide in the Son and in the Father."

Hmmm....Which I just noticed the writer of post 109 has already mentioned...

Great minds....

JDale

 

[JDale]

We are SECURE in Christ and we can never lose salvation.

Praise GOD for His GRACE!

NOTE for the umpteenth time: Reformed Arminians DO NOT TEACH one can LOSE salvation.

JDale

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JD: Reformed Arminians DO NOT TEACH one can LOSE salvation.

HP: Forgive me if you have told the is, but what is a “Reformed Arminian?” What exactly do you claim to believe, OSAS?

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Romans 11 it is the warning
to "FEAR for you only stand by your faith" ...

Ed said -
Those in fear of loosing God's Salvation of them are NOT standing by faith.

There is a flaw in your logic. In Romans 11 Paul is not saying "BECOME joined to Christ" he is saying "You are right ... you ARE grafted into Christ... do not be arrogant but FEAR for you only STAND by your FAITH" -

He is NOT saying "HEY I told you to fear and you DID fear so that means you are not saved".

Your argurment is running contrary to the content of Roman 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

NOTE for the umpteenth time: Reformed Arminians DO NOT TEACH one can LOSE salvation.

JDale

HP has been holding the Calvinist's feet to the fire on Limited Atonement by arguing they can not use the "all of Christ none of you" argument for "OSAS" and yet reject limited atonement because anything else is showing some impact "on what you decide or do".

In the same way I have argued that Arminians need to come to grips withthe fact that their "Free will" position directly contradicts OSAS since the person who chooses salvation CAN still CHOOSE to fall away.

To deny free will after salvation - is not an Arminian position.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'm not Calvinist, I'm not Arminian:

Phillippians 2:12 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore, my beloued,
as yee haue alwayes obeyed,
not as in my presence onely,
but now much more in my absence;
worke out your owne saluation
with feare, and trembling.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: I'm not Calvinist, I'm not Arminian:

HP: What part of TULIP do you believe is in error? Forgive me if I cannot remember what you have previously stated concerning this matter.

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: What part of TULIP do you believe is in error? Forgive me if I cannot remember what you have previously stated concerning this matter.

T Total depravity
U Unconditional election
L Limited atonement
I Irresistible grace
P Perseverance of the saints

I don't believe 'I Irresistible Grace' is not
correct &/or misunderstood. A person doesn't know
if they are on God's pre-saved list. They can
resist the Holy Spirit. The only way people can tell
if another person is saved is if they both get to
Heaven.

'P' is correct, once a person received God's Saving
Grace, it will NOT be withdrawn. Only don't mess with
God, He made lots of ways you can slowly kill yourself
and get 'called out' prematurely.

 

[JDale]

HP: Forgive me if you have told the is, but what is a “Reformed Arminian?” What exactly do you claim to believe, OSAS?

A Reformed Arminian more closely relates theologically to the position of Arminius himself, rather than to the "Wesleyan-Arminian" view.

Arminius held that Total Depravity as Calvinists understood it was essentially correct. However, He also held to a Conditional Election (FAITH being the condition), a General Atonement, the Resistiblility of Grace, and the Possibility of Apostasy.

Wesleyan-Arminians vary in their views or interpretations of Total Depravity to some degree, and on the Possibility of Apostasy. BOTH Wesleyan and Reformed Arminians believe it is POSSIBLE to forfeit salvation, but RA's affirm that if one comes to that point (that is, apostasy) that they cannot "renew themselves again..." In other words, if one apostasizes, he is eternally lost and cannot or will not desire to be saved again (Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-31). WA's tend to believe in "Repeated Regeneration," or the possibility that one can, through sin or faithlessness, "backslide" to the extent that they are not saved, yet, they can come back into the grace of God should they choose to repent. Some would say that the repentant believer is then "re-saved," but other WA's would resist that as the description of what occurs.

RA's and WA's are further apart on this issue, actually, than are RA's and typical Southern Baptists, whom I generally identify as Modified Arminians or 2 point Calvinists.

JDale

 

[Hope of Glory]

Ed,

It's good to see someone else who sees that both sides have some of it right and some of it wrong.

I've had multiple times, when asked if I'm Calvinist or Arminian, "I reply 'neither'".

"Oh, you have to be one or the other!"

"Why?"

 

[Oasis]

Hope of Glory

Ed,

It's good to see someone else who sees that both sides have some of it right and some of it wrong.

I've had multiple times, when asked if I'm Calvinist or Arminian, "I reply 'neither'".

"Oh, you have to be one or the other!"

"Why?"

Hi Hope of Glory,

I'm a Heinz 57 too.:laugh: