Yos can't lose salvation!

[JDale]

From what I understand, if one that was saved reaches the point where he forfeits his salvation and can no longer be saved, that person will not want to be saved (he will no longer have a desire to be in Christ). Is this correct? In other words, if someone is concerned that he has fallen away, wants to be in Christ (saved) and is worried that he cannot be, this would be evidence that either he: 1) has not reached the "point of no return" (provided the correct belief is where a person can become lost and then saved again), or 2) either the person is still saved or he was never saved to begin with (if the correct belief is where once a person is saved, if he truely falls away, then he is forever lost).

This is essentially correct -- that is, this is what most Reformed Arminians believe. I tend to believe generally the same. The Scriptures most often understood to believe that are Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31.

As to the incident at the FWB church -- I'm deeply sorry you had that experience. FWB's are, unfortunately, most known for their uncanny ability to shoot themselves in the foot (or head) that way. I'm no longer in the FWB church because of that tendency among FWB's. Where are you attending now (if I may ask)?

JDale

 

[ccdnt]

This is essentially correct -- that is, this is what most Reformed Arminians believe. I tend to believe generally the same. The Scriptures most often understood to believe that are Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31.

As to the incident at the FWB church -- I'm deeply sorry you had that experience. FWB's are, unfortunately, most known for their uncanny ability to shoot themselves in the foot (or head) that way. I'm no longer in the FWB church because of that tendency among FWB's. Where are you attending now (if I may ask)?

JDale

We are not attending any one particular church. We have been visiting different churches looking for a church home. Unfortunately, most churches in our area that do not teach OSAS have other beliefs that I am not comfortable with. I would say the largest majority of churches in our area teach OSAS.

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Amy.G
I think the question is, how do we reconcile the verses that ccdnt posted with the verses that say we are secure? We can't just ignore the verses like the one posted above.

You do realize that your question presupposes OSAS to be the correct doctrine taught by the Bible.

If OSAS is not taught, however, then the question could be -

How do we reconcile the verses that seem to teach OSAS with the ones I posted.

My point was, although I may have asked it awkwardly, how can we reconcile these passages. If possible, could we do it without any presuppositions?

Can we take the verses used on both sides of the argument and bring them together to find the truth?

 

[JDale]

We are not attending any one particular church. We have been visiting different churches looking for a church home. Unfortunately, most churches in our area that do not teach OSAS have other beliefs that I am not comfortable with. I would say the largest majority of churches in our area teach OSAS.

My wife and I are members of an SBC church, and we're quite satisfied. Our church majors on the majors -- building the kingdom. The other things -- which they are solidly Southern Baptist on -- are nevertheless not used as clubs with which to bludgeon those who disagree.

JDale

 

[BobRyan]

Post 84

Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Cahpter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots o time -- but if you do not nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.

 

[BobRyan]

There seems to be -- among those who hold to OSAS -- the idea that those who believe in the possibility of apostasy, do not or cannot also affirm assurance of salvation. This is another misportrayal or misunderstanding.

I John 5:13a, clearly declares, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life..."

Assurance of salvation isn't an issue. I believe and I am confident of my security. I can preach and teach assurance of salvation with the OSAS preacher anyday of the week...

JDale

This is a good point. The assurance of salvation is NOT based on "God stuck in an OSAS box" it is based on REAL "BY THIS WE KNOW.." type statements in 1John and on things like Romans 8:16 "The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God".

in other words - it is a living relationship - a transaction "I die daily" said Paul in 1Cor 15.

The Arminian can KNOW that he is saved today but can not know that 10 years from today he will continue to persevere and remain saved.

The 3 and 5 point Calvinist can NOT even know that much - because they retro-delete TODAY's assurance when it turns out that 10 years from today they fail to persevere.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Once again -- RA's DO NOT believe one can "lose" salvation. But, it CAN be forfeited. To say one cannot turn away from Christ is to ignore the weight of scriptural evidence. And in answer to your above quote of I John 2:23-25:
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also]. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life."

The promise is eternal life -- but one CAN forfeit it -- one CAN turn away -- If we don't ABIDE, if "it" does not REMAIN in us...

JDale

1John 2:22-25 is not speaking of anyone who has forfeited their salvation. Look at the context. Verse 22 is especially important. He is speaking of antichrists. Even now there are many antichrists in the world. How can false prophets, false teachers, those who speak against Christ, those who deny the deity of Christ (the very issue that John is addressing) be a believer, or even once be a believer. I can't see how this should even enter into your mind that this passage is speaking about believers. It is written to believers warning them about what is in the world--antichrists, false teachers, those that are opposed to Christ. Where do you get the idea that these are individuals who were once saved and now have forfeited their salvation. This is an impossible position to take in light of the context.

1 John 2:22-25 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

The therefore in verse 24 indicates a conclusion from the warning of the antichrists that are in the world given in verses 22 and 23.

 

[drfuss]

My point was, although I may have asked it awkwardly, how can we reconcile these passages. If possible, could we do it without any presuppositions?

Can we take the verses used on both sides of the argument and bring them together to find the truth?

Bringing these verses together to find the truth has been tried for 400 years. This has been complicated by Calvinism. If one believes in Classic Calvinism, he must believe in OSAS. So for Calvinists, they are not only defending OSAS, but are defending Calvinism. If we are excluding Classic Calvinists, the following would apply IMHO.

There are many different scriptures that can be interpreted to support both sides of this issue.

Those who do not believe in OSAS usually take the following position about the scriptures used to support OSAS. The many scriptures used to support OSAS, are intended to encourage Christians to continue trusting Christ. They take this position because of the many other scriptures that warn Christians about stopping trusting Christ.

On the other hand, the OSAS believers usually take the following positions about scriptures that others believe conflict with OSAS. The many scriptures that warn about stopping trusting Christ are not talking about eternal salvation, but are talking about rewards or something else. For other scriptures that conflict with OSAS, they claim the person was not really a true Christian in the first place, he just thought he was.

Both sides have many scriptures that can be interpreted to support their position. I have yet to find a scripture that explicitly says that a Christian can not stop trusting Christ, only scriptures interpreted by OSAS believers to say it. On the other hand, there are many scriptures that warn against stopping trusting Christ that I have trouble believing is not talking about eternal salvation.

After studing both sides of the issue, I believe a Christian can forfeit his salvation by deciding to stop trusting in Christ and trusting in something else.

 

[ccdnt]

My comments about these verses are in paranthesis.

1 John 2:22-25 (NASB)
22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
(Here, antichrists are being talked about)

24 As for you, (here, he is addressing those to whom he is speaking...about to tell them something applicable to them) let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, (condition - if you do this, then this will be the result) you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

 

[DHK]

My comments are about these verses are in paranthesis.

1 John 2:22-25 (NASB)
22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
(Here, antichrists are being talked about)

24 As for you, (here, he is addressing those to whom he is speaking...about to tell them something applicable to them) let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, (condition - if you do this, then this will be the result) you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

John is repeating what Jesus said only in different words. Go back to the parable of the vine and the branches.
"I am the vine ye are the branches," Jesus said.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

The fact is very evident. There are no ifs. Only Christians abidie in Christ. Only Christians are part of the vine. Only Christians have that right to go to Christ and ask "what they will." We are the branches. Nothing will change that fact.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

John is repeating what Jesus said only in different words. Go back to the parable of the vine and the branches.
"I am the vine ye are the branches," Jesus said.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

The fact is very evident. There are no ifs. Only Christians abidie in Christ. Only Christians are part of the vine. Only Christians have that right to go to Christ and ask "what they will." We are the branches. Nothing will change that fact.

You're right DHK, but only as Christ says IF ye abide in me... or if one abideth in me..., which means to stay, remain or dwell...

-

 

[Hope of Glory]

Nine pages into this thread and it does not appear to be intended as a Bible based support for OSAS when confronted with the disconfirming texts of scripture. So far the purpose seems to be that each group would highlight the texts they find helfpul in supporting a specific POV and then having the OSAS side ignore any scriptures that show that OSAS is not a valid doctrine.

In Christ,

Bob

I can honestly say that y'all have a lot more time on your hands than I do.

I will make a brief response, and hopefully have time to track down the list that is in some previous page, and respond verse by verse.

However, one thing that boggles my mind is that both sides of the issue are willing to accept contraditions, unwilling to look at the opposing side's verses, or both.

When we mix the Kingdom message with the salvation message, we are going to get contraditions.

One is secure and is based on the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

The other one is the hope of a Christian and is based upon our faithfulness or lack thereof while in the flesth.

One can perish (lose his soul or his life in the age to come) and yet be saved spiritually forever.

That's what perishing is about. Perishing is about losing your life. You can't lose something that you don't have. Aionian life (life in the age to come) is a saved person's to lose. The picture that we're given is that of the prodigal son.

He was a son. He blew his inheritance. He said, "I am perishing!" (It's in the middle voice: "I'm causing myself to perish!")

Yet, he came back home and was given a robe and a ring and some sandals. Not as much as he had before, but still he was welcomed back.

What would have happened if he had not returned? He would have perished and it would have been his fault!

But, if you apply this to salvation, then you also have contradictions in that we are flat-out told, with no ifs, ands, or buts, that if we believe (mental assent) on the Lord Jesus, then we will be saved, with no doubt about it.

Because of changes in language over the last 400 or so years, we, as saved people, have lost sight of what "aionian life" is.

John 3:16 tells us that those who are believing (present tense) might or might not perish and they might or might not have aionian life.

If this is talking about being born into the family, then it's a works based salvation, and there is no security, and that contradicts many different passages.

It's mixing two different messages, and it creates confusion and division.

We have to rightly divide the Scriptures, and part of that rightly dividing is separating the messages to different people. There is more than one gospel that is contained in the gospel.

So, we can lose our life, but not our spiritual salvation.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Then again, the Lord also uses a different, present tense phrase in another passage:

"But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25:12).

JDale

Grammar makes a difference. Most people lose sight of that, and Greek is so much more expressive and precise than English. (It's also static, which means that while our English words we use to understand the Greek may change, the Greek does not.)

Don't forget, we're told elsewhere that he knows everyone.

So, what's the context?

 

[ccdnt]

I did not mean for this to post here.

 

[AAA]

After studing both sides of the issue, I believe a Christian can forfeit his salvation by deciding to stop trusting in Christ and trusting in something else.

I to believe that a "christian" can forfeit (give up) his salvation, but when a so-called christian does this I have to ask: was such a person saved to begin with? 1st JOHN 2:19 show these so-called christians that walked away from their salvation and they did NOT lose salvation, because they never had it to begin with.

If they did lose salvation, then you would have to prove they had salvation to begin with and you would also have to prove that something is more powerful then GOD and is therefore able to pluck HIS children out from HIS hand (John 10:28-29).

We are SECURE in Christ and we can never lose salvation.

Praise GOD for His GRACE!

 

[ccdnt]

John is repeating what Jesus said only in different words. Go back to the parable of the vine and the branches.
"I am the vine ye are the branches," Jesus said.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

The fact is very evident. There are no ifs. Only Christians abidie in Christ. Only Christians are part of the vine. Only Christians have that right to go to Christ and ask "what they will." We are the branches. Nothing will change that fact.

Romans 11:17-22 - 17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, - [talking about believers] 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Those that are in Christ are the branches and will remain so, provided they continue to remain in Christ.

As for the verses you cited from John, you cited 5 and 7 but left out verse 6:

John 15:5-7
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

How does OSAS explain verse 6?

To "abide" means to "remain with", to "continue" with, to "stay" with. How can a person remain with Christ if the person was not with Christ to begin with?

Here is the YLT of verse 5 - `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything;

This shows that "abide" is in the present tense here. A person must be currently with Christ (currently remaining with). If someone was never saved to begin with, then he was never with Christ. How can it be said of someone that is not with Christ and was never with Christ that he must abide/remain with Christ? A person must first come to Christ before he can abide/remain with Him. From this, this seems to be addressing those already in Christ.

 

[ccdnt]

1st JOHN 2:19 show these so-called christians that walked away from their salvation and they did NOT lose salvation, because they never had it to begin with.

I agree that there are people that profess to be Christians but are not saved and were never saved to begin with, but this does not negate that a person that is currently a believer can choose to turn away from Christ. Scripture warns against falling away (as I have cited already).

If they did lose salvation, then you would have to prove they had salvation to begin with and you would also have to prove that something is more powerful then GOD and is therefore able to pluck HIS children out from HIS hand (John 10:28-29).

We are SECURE in Christ and we can never lose salvation.

Praise GOD for His GRACE!

To "pluck" something out is to pull it out. How can a person "pluck" (pull) himself out from something? Someone else/some other thing could pull a person away from something. God says that no one can pluck those that are saved out of His hand, and that is true. This says nothing about believers choosing to willingly move out of His hand.

 

[ccdnt]

When we mix the Kingdom message with the salvation message, we are going to get contraditions.

When understood correctly, the Bible never contradicts itself.

What would have happened if [the prodigal son] had not returned? He would have perished and it would have been his fault!

But, if you apply this to salvation, then you also have contradictions in that we are flat-out told, with no ifs, ands, or buts, that if we believe (mental assent) on the Lord Jesus, then we will be saved, with no doubt about it.

Because of changes in language over the last 400 or so years, we, as saved people, have lost sight of what "aionian life" is.

John 3:16 tells us that those who are believing (present tense) might or might not perish and they might or might not have aionian life.

If this is talking about being born into the family, then it's a works based salvation, and there is no security, and that contradicts many different passages.

John 3:16 (YLT) - 16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

As you pointed out, believing in Jesus is in the present tense. We must currently be believing in Him. Why is it considered a work to have to choose to remain in Christ? A person that is not saved must initially come to Christ. He must confess his sins, believe in Christ's death and resurrection, accept Him as Savior, etc. Are these works? If initially coming to Christ, choosing to follow Christ, etc. is not considered a work, then why is having to remain in Christ, continue to believe in Him, continue to have faith in Him considered a work?

By the way, the verses I posted were in post #42. I also asked a question at the end of that posting (and re-posted it later) that no one has addressed yet.

 

[Eliyahu]

John 15:5-7
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

How does OSAS explain verse 6?

To "abide" means to "remain with", to "continue" with, to "stay" with. How can a person remain with Christ if the person was not with Christ to begin with?

From this, this seems to be addressing those already in Christ.

Verse 6 indicates the people who have not been born again, not saved yet. Any branches are human beings created in the likeness of God.
The people abiding in Christ are saved.

 

[DHK]

To "abide" means to "remain with", to "continue" with, to "stay" with. How can a person remain with Christ if the person was not with Christ to begin with?

Obviously, if a person was not with Christ to begin with he never was a Christian to begin with. From a vine (or tree) runs the sap. And the sap runs through branches. And the branches produces fruit or flowers. That is nature. It happens all the time.
Dead branches have no life. (They are not saved.)
Fruitful branches will be pruned (suffer) that they will bear more fruit.
All branches continue to be joined to the tree, for from the tree it gets its life (sap).
The only other possible lesson that might be learned is that sometimes a branch gets old, and outlives its usefulness. It dies and falls off the tree. Could this represent the believer that dies and goes to heaven? The body may be destroyed, but the spirit never. A new branch will grow in its place. No one is inexpendable in God's sight.
1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.