Yos can't lose salvation!

[AAA]

This has nothing to do with this thread topic....

Did you mean to put it here, or am I just missing something here?

God bless you....

 

[AAA]

Thanks..n/t..............

 

[BobRyan]

Is anyone that believes in OSAS going to address any or all of the Scriptures I posted in an earlier post?

Nine pages into this thread and it does not appear to be intended as a Bible based support for OSAS when confronted with the disconfirming texts of scripture. So far the purpose seems to be that each group would highlight the texts they find helfpul in supporting a specific POV and then having the OSAS side ignore any scriptures that show that OSAS is not a valid doctrine.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Cahpter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots o time -- but if you do not nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the

kingdom of heaven may be compared

to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

Matt 18
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave

felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” and tries the solution of “works” to repay – the Lord has mercy on him anyway. He dismisses the attempt at works and makes it clear that pure grace pure mercy alone solve the problem. Fully solve the problem and so He “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

Notice what happens at the end of the story -

31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

 

[BobRyan]

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

Matt 18
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to

plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison

until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

Matt 18
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "

You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

Matt 18
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Matt 18
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger,

handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.

Matt 18
35 "" My heavenly

Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues (and motivates Peter via the illustration given as an answer to Peter’s question) that WE who have been forgiven by our heavenly Father “should” as in (are obligated to) forgive others.

Paul makes this same case in Col 3

Col 3

11a [b]renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew[/b], circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all[/b].
12So, as those who have been chosen[/b] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other[/b], whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

This new life of loving and forgiving others is not a “given” it is a focus, an objective, it is the subject of Paul’s instruction – we must be commanded, motivated, encouraged admonished to walk in a way that embraces the act of forgiving others. (Just As Christ points out in Matt 18)


In Matt 18 Christ saidthat HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.

 

[Oasis]

Hope of Glory

If I read you correctly, you believe in salvational security. So do I. And, I don't think there are exceptions. If there are, then there are contradictions in Scripture (which there are none) and if there are contradictions, the Bible is worthless.

I agree.

But, if you apply "perish" to going to the lake of fire forever, which is what I assume you mean by "hell", then there's a problem. It says that those who are believing (present, active, participle) might not perish (subjunctive). What happens if they stop believing? They might perish. It also says that those who are believing (remember, present, active) might (subjunctive; might not) have life aionian.

Another problem is that in order to perish, you have to have life to begin with. A dead person cannot die; only a living person can. Unsaved people are already dead.

Hi Hope,


Good heavens! I post...come back a few days later to check an answer or two....and see a book has been written on the subject since I checked last.:laugh:
The short answer is, you brainiacs keep me busy!:laugh:
Seriously, without getting into a sentence dissecting discussion, I understand the way you're looking at it and I agree with you.

So, how does this fit in with security?

Like three peas in a pod.
The three peas are you, me, and the believers.
The pod is God.:thumbs:

 

[Oasis]

Heavenly Pilgrim

“Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

Hi Heavenly Pilgrim,

To address the Scripture you quoted...when you look at verses 7-11 you see the writer of Hebrews is asking the reader to respond and not fall away. As for the word "brethren", it is not a reference to Christians. This writer refers to Christians as "holy brethren".
Look at v.1.

"Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling...

v.12 is written to fellow Jews. If they reject Christianity, they will be departing from God.

Quote:
AAA-Thanks, i feel sorry for those who can't have the assurance of thier salvation, because they are so afraid of losing it......



HP: Help me understand your sorrow.

I am happily married to my wife. I trust in her and she trusts in me. We have a loving commitment with each other. Our relationship is based on faith and trust. It is not set in stone. If it was, and there was no possibility of losing the relationship, I might as well love a rock as my wife.

Now tell me why you would feel sorry for me when I cannot be 100% assured that our marriage will last a lifetime? I do not walk around in fear that our relationship is on the brink of disaster, and I have a full assurance that it will indeed last,……IF I keep my commitment to our marriage and my wife keeps hers. I still, inspite of the possibilities otherwise, rest in loving commitment to my wedding vows and again remain confident of our relationship. If you feel sorrow for me, your sorrow is unfounded. I am having the time of my life with the love of my youth! I love her!!

You inject a notion of being afraid of losing our relationship with the Lord. That is true in a sense, just as I am afraid, in a sense, that if I fail to keep my commitment to my wife our marriage could end, just the same I do not walk around in fear. I walk in loving obedience to my commitment, and trust in my wife to do the same. That is love, not worrisome fear.

When I drive down the road, I have a healthy fear of failing to pay attention to my driving, and that I could indeed have a wreck. Just the same, I do not turn my knuckles white holding onto the steering wheel thinking, “I am going to have a wreck! I am going to have a wreck!” Far from it. I try and think safety as I drive, and try my best to allow my full attention to my driving, the best that lieth within me. A healthy fear should breed caution and attentiveness. It is not a bad thing, but rather may serve to be the means by which I avoid an accident.

HP,

First I'd like to say I'm happy to read of your commitment and love for each other. It's refreshing to hear in this day and age. How long have you been married?

I don't think that your analogy works, imho. I am incredibly, happily married to my Godly wife, but the covenant I have with her is between two human beings and will last as long as our physical bodies do.
My covenant with God will last for eternity.

Take care

 

[Oasis]

Hi ccdnt,

Referring to post #42 where you listed all the verses. I think some of them have been addressed.

To give you an answer....a quote from Charles Horne:

"It is noteworthy that when Jude exhorts us to keep ourselves in the love of God(v.21), he concludes with a doxology for Him who is able to keep us from falling and who will present us without blemish before the presence of His glory(v.24). The warning passages are means which God uses in our life to accomplish His prupose in grace."(emphasis mine)

I would add the the warning passages throughout Scripture tell us that the apostolic authors were very aware that not every person in the churches they were writing to were genuinely converted.

 

[Oasis]

Ed

Matthew 24:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
But he that shall endure vnto the end,
the same shall be saued.

In the if/then form:

If one endures unto the end,
then one shall be saved.

Note what it does NOT say:

If one endures NOT unto the end,
then one shall NOT be saved.

If this is true, prove it from the Bible.
The truth of
If one endures unto the end,
then one shall be saved.
is not necessarily the same truth as
If one endures NOT unto the end,
then one shall NOT be saved.
They are independent arguments (statement, point, proposition).

This statement is true (see Matthew 24:13):
If one endures unto the end,
then one shall be saved.

this statement need to be proved
from the Bible by other than Matthew 24:13:
If one endures NOT unto the end,
then one shall NOT be saved.

Excellent insight Ed.:thumbs:

I like what John MacArthur says about perseverence:
"Perseverence means that those who have true faith can lose that faith neither totally nor finally. It echoes God's promise through Jeremiah:
'I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.'"(emphasis added)

I am secure in the promises of God, and one of those promises is that He will give me the strength to persevere.:godisgood:

 

[JDale]

"The gift of God is eternal life."
If that be true (and I believe the Bible is true, and thus the statement to be true), then if salvation could be lost (or OSAS not true), eternal life would not be eternal but only temporary, and Christ would be found to be a liar.

I love you OSAS guys. DHK, you're barking up the WRONG tree. I didn't say one could LOSE salvation -- nor do I believe that.

JDale

 

[JDale]

I believe so.

Mt 7
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ( From the beginning)

Then again, the Lord also uses a different, present tense phrase in another passage:

"But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25:12).

JDale

 

[ccdnt]

Hi ccdnt,

Referring to post #42 where you listed all the verses. I think some of them have been addressed.

To give you an answer....a quote from Charles Horne:

"It is noteworthy that when Jude exhorts us to keep ourselves in the love of God(v.21), he concludes with a doxology for Him who is able to keep us from falling and who will present us without blemish before the presence of His glory(v.24). The warning passages are means which God uses in our life to accomplish His prupose in grace."(emphasis mine)

I would add the the warning passages throughout Scripture tell us that the apostolic authors were very aware that not every person in the churches they were writing to were genuinely converted.

Will you please reference the posts where those verses were addressed? As for all the warning passages being a reference to those that are not genuinely converted, many of the passages I referenced are addressing believers (people already saved), warning people against falling away (implying that they are in a "saved position" otherwise, what could they fall away from?), etc.

 

[JDale]

Eternal life cannot be forfeited, else it was never eternal in the first place. It seems to me that people have trouble with the English language. Eternal means forever and ever. If Christ gives me eternal life (and he has, as he has promised through his word), then if it was possible to lose it in any way Christ would be lying. Eternal is forever. Once eternal stops, by definition it is no longer eternal, it is only temporary. You have changed the definition of eternal by saying that eternal life can be lost, forfeited, taken away, etc. That is why OSAS is true. If it weren't true Christ would be lying.

"I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never perish. No man shall pluck you out of my hand. My Father which gave them to me is greater than all, and no man shall be able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

To say that eternal life can either be lost or end is to make Christ a liar.

Once again -- RA's DO NOT believe one can "lose" salvation. But, it CAN be forfeited. To say one cannot turn away from Christ is to ignore the weight of scriptural evidence. And in answer to your above quote of I John 2:23-25:
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also]. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life."

The promise is eternal life -- but one CAN forfeit it -- one CAN turn away -- If we don't ABIDE, if "it" does not REMAIN in us...

JDale

 

[JDale]

Once anyone is truly born again by Holy Spirit, such person cannot lose the salvation, I believe, though if anyone commit sins grievously like the one in 1 Cor 5, that person may have the shamful( naked) salvation.

Reformed Arminians don't teach one can "lose" salvation. To repeat this charge is inaccurate and misportrays their position.

JDale

 

[ccdnt]

Eternal life cannot be forfeited, else it was never eternal in the first place. It seems to me that people have trouble with the English language. Eternal means forever and ever. If Christ gives me eternal life (and he has, as he has promised through his word), then if it was possible to lose it in any way Christ would be lying. Eternal is forever. Once eternal stops, by definition it is no longer eternal, it is only temporary. You have changed the definition of eternal by saying that eternal life can be lost, forfeited, taken away, etc. That is why OSAS is true. If it weren't true Christ would be lying.

"I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never perish. No man shall pluck you out of my hand. My Father which gave them to me is greater than all, and no man shall be able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

To say that eternal life can either be lost or end is to make Christ a liar.

Yes, the life itself is eternal, but not necessarily the possession of that life. Again, from what I see, the Scriptures teach that the gift is one of eternal life. To be in possession of that gift, one must be presently believing in Jesus. If one were to fall away, turn away from Christ, etc., he would no longer be in possession of that gift. The gift has not changed. The life is still eternal life. The person just no longer possess it.

I do not expect those that believe in OSAS to agree with this. I have debated this at length before, and from what I have seen, all that usually happens is both sides give their reasons for what they believe over and over again without anyone changing their position on this.

 

[JDale]

There seems to be -- among those who hold to OSAS -- the idea that those who believe in the possibility of apostasy, do not or cannot also affirm assurance of salvation. This is another misportrayal or misunderstanding.

I John 5:13a, clearly declares, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life..."

Assurance of salvation isn't an issue. I believe and I am confident of my security. I can preach and teach assurance of salvation with the OSAS preacher anyday of the week...

JDale

 

[ccdnt]

That's correct. I was an FWB Minister for 17+ years, so I guess you could say I'm familiar with this topic

Where'd you attend a FWB church?

JDale

In Mississippi. We ended up at a FWB church when we started looking for a church that did not teach OSAS. I used to believe in OSAS. After my wife and I realized that the Bible did not teach this, we wanted to find a church that did not teach OSAS. From my researching of denominations that did not teach OSAS, FWB seemed to be one of the closes fits with what my wife and I believed. Unfortunately, we had an incident involving a church staff member and our child that was not resolved, and as a result, we no longer felt comfortable attending there.

Although I believe that the Bible teaches that a person can fall away from Christ (become lost again) and then return to Christ, I also believe that there is a point where a person can turn away from Christ and no longer be saved. I am, however, open to the possibility that the correct understanding is that once a believer falls away, he is forever lost. It is just that I have read passages that seem to suggest otherwise. I am convinced, however, that we must continue to believe in Jesus, have faith in Him to save us, etc. to remain in Christ, and that falling away is a very real possibility.

From what I understand, if one that was saved reaches the point where he forfeits his salvation and can no longer be saved, that person will not want to be saved (he will no longer have a desire to be in Christ). Is this correct? In other words, if someone is concerned that he has fallen away, wants to be in Christ (saved) and is worried that he cannot be, this would be evidence that either he: 1) has not reached the "point of no return" (provided the correct belief is where a person can become lost and then saved again), or 2) either the person is still saved or he was never saved to begin with (if the correct belief is where once a person is saved, if he truely falls away, then he is forever lost).

 

[EdSutton]

[quote Agnus_Dei]To ask whether or not one was ever saved to begin with is nothing more than a cop-out response and a weak one at that. [/quote]

It sure does sound good, though!

And it keeps you from having to work hard and study.

:laugh: :laugh:

Well put!

Ed

 

[ccdnt]

I think the question is, how do we reconcile the verses that ccdnt posted with the verses that say we are secure? We can't just ignore the verses like the one posted above.

You do realize that your question presupposes OSAS to be the correct doctrine taught by the Bible.

If OSAS is not taught, however, then the question could be -

How do we reconcile the verses that seem to teach OSAS with the ones I posted.