Yos can't lose salvation!

[DHK]

"The gift of God is eternal life."
If that be true (and I believe the Bible is true, and thus the statement to be true), then if salvation could be lost (or OSAS not true), eternal life would not be eternal but only temporary, and Christ would be found to be a liar.

 

[gekko]

You would also have to prove that they had salvation in the first place before you can prove that they lost it...

exactly - there's no such thing as a "backslider" - because for someone to backslide they would have to have moved forward...

but i do believe people can move side to side - example to other religions. there may not be examples of that in scripture - but my dad is an example.

like i said before - and other people have said as well - you can't go from knowing someone to "un-knowing" them... right?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Those that "BELIEVE"(present tense) will NEVER perish (go to hell, under the judgment of eternal separation)...

Wow, looks like someone is familiar with action words and tenses for verbs…did you also notice in John 3:16 that …have everlasting life. is also in the present tense? It doesn’t say that you will have eternal life in the past or future, but that you will currently be having eternal life. He who is currently, habitually and continuously believing…will be currently and presently having eternal life.

So now we add another element of a Greek verb tense that denotes one point in time, aorist.

John 3:16…For God so loved (aorist, a past point in time) the world, that he gave (aorist, a past point in time) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present, current, progressive action) in him should not perish (aorist, a past point in time), but have (present, current, progressive action) everlasting life.

The present tense that whosoever is believing in Him puts a different light on the verse. One would expect the word believe to be aorist, to show it’s a “once-and-for-all” act, a “one-point-in-time” event. As a former fundamentalist I used to say, I believed in Christ on such and such a date so I know I am saved. But now I say, I did believe in Christ, I am believing in Christ and I am being saved. One could ask why Jesus switched to the present tense in a verse full of aorists. The present tense implies continually believing, a process of believing, and not the past mental assent I once thought.

One needs to be careful with the interpretation of the Bible, for what one believes and understands has eternal consequences.

-

 

[BobRyan]

I thought I would post some verses in reference to OSAS that I have discussed before in another Christian forum. I am sure that those that believe in OSAS will have an explanation for why these verses do not speak against OSAS. I will be interested to see if any new explanations are offered that I have not heard before.

Matthew 24:10 - At that time many will fall away - [implies this is referring to believers since one cannot fall from a position if he was never in that position in the first place] - and will betray one another and hate one another.

...

That was a pretty impressive list sir.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When did Adam "The son of God" according to Luke 3:38 become "uncreated"?? "unborn"?? "unson"??

Now back to scripture.

Let's start with Matt 18 and forgiveness revoked in that chapter alone OSAS is debunked.

then go to John 15 - branches cast out of the vine of Christ - in that one chapter alone OSAS is debunked.

Then go to Romans 11 and the reference to those who like the Jews would be removed from Christ and yet Christ is "able to graft them in again IF THEY do not CONTINUE in unbelief" - in that chapter ALONE OSAS is debunked.

Shall I go on - or is this enough to start some Bible interest in the "inconvenient facts" of scripture?

One more point - "assurance of salvation" is not based on games you play in your mind about "people being unborn". According to Rom 8:16 it is a literal transaction and objective confirmaiton "The Spirit bears WITNESS with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God".

Talking yourself into something is not the point. In Matt 7 we see the vast majority "convinced" that they are saved when they are not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

One more point - "assurance of salvation" is not based on games you play in your mind about "people being unborn". According to Rom 8:16 it is a literal transaction and objective confirmaiton "The Spirit bears WITNESS with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God".

Talking yourself into something is not the point. In Matt 7 we see the vast majority "convinced" that they are saved when they are not.

In Christ,

Bob

Bob, I'm not sure what you mean here. Romans 8:16 sounds like it could be used to confirm OSAS. Is that what you mean?

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8:16 shows us that the basis for assurance is not playig mind games about "what can be unsealed" and who can be "unborn". Those games mean nothing since Adam "the son of God" did not need to be "unborn" to become lost.

Romans 8:16 shows that it is a living transaction - a relationship where the Spirit of God bears WITNESS with our spirit that we ARE the children of God.

2 Tim 2
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us[/b];
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.


The SPirit is apparently not "stuck" in the mode of "witnessing that all is well" according to this text.

He accurately reports the facts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ccdnt]

Is anyone that believes in OSAS going to address any or all of the Scriptures I posted in an earlier post?

 

[ccdnt]

"The gift of God is eternal life."
If that be true (and I believe the Bible is true, and thus the statement to be true), then if salvation could be lost (or OSAS not true), eternal life would not be eternal but only temporary, and Christ would be found to be a liar.

Why would eternal life only then be temporary? The gift itself is eternal life - the gift of eternal life...not the eternal gift of eternal life. A person can choose to forfeit that gift and then no longer possess the gift. The gift is still one of eternal life whether the person has the gift or not.

 

[Eliyahu]

IF a person is said to have lost/walked away from/given up their salvation, then, we have to ask our selves: Was that person ever saved to begin with?

Salvation is by GOD' GRACE!

I believe so.

Mt 7
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ( From the beginning)

 

[DHK]

Why would eternal life only then be temporary? The gift itself is eternal life - the gift of eternal life...not the eternal gift of eternal life. A person can choose to forfeit that gift and then no longer possess the gift. The gift is still one of eternal life whether the person has the gift or not.

Eternal life cannot be forfeited, else it was never eternal in the first place. It seems to me that people have trouble with the English language. Eternal means forever and ever. If Christ gives me eternal life (and he has, as he has promised through his word), then if it was possible to lose it in any way Christ would be lying. Eternal is forever. Once eternal stops, by definition it is no longer eternal, it is only temporary. You have changed the definition of eternal by saying that eternal life can be lost, forfeited, taken away, etc. That is why OSAS is true. If it weren't true Christ would be lying.

"I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never perish. No man shall pluck you out of my hand. My Father which gave them to me is greater than all, and no man shall be able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

To say that eternal life can either be lost or end is to make Christ a liar.

 

[Eliyahu]

Once anyone is truly born again by Holy Spirit, such person cannot lose the salvation, I believe, though if anyone commit sins grievously like the one in 1 Cor 5, that person may have the shamful( naked) salvation.

 

[Ed Edwards]

ccdnt: //I see many warnings in Scripture against
falling away. I see conditional statements regarding
salvation... (if/then). //

I get tired of answering this over and over and over.
Figure out how to use Google for a search
(the ADVANCED opition lets you put in a
specific board to check /use baptistboard.com/ ).

If you Google:
"Ed Edwards" site:baptistboard.com
tonight (19 Apr 2007) you get
5,760 hits. YEP, 5,760 posts since
Google went to tracking BB posts.
(some are already missing, so use
CACHED - Google keeps posts longer
than BB does???)


Here is Ed's definition of OSAS (once saved, always
saved):

Joh 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world,
that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

OSAS means what ever 'everlasting life' means.

OSAS is about the FIDELITY of God;
not the pirfidy of humans.

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by ccdnt
I thought I would post some verses in reference to OSAS that I have discussed before in another Christian forum. I am sure that those that believe in OSAS will have an explanation for why these verses do not speak against OSAS. I will be interested to see if any new explanations are offered that I have not heard before.

Matthew 24:10 - At that time many will fall away - [implies this is referring to believers since one cannot fall from a position if he was never in that position in the first place] - and will betray one another and hate one another.

...

I think the question is, how do we reconcile the verses that ccdnt posted with the verses that say we are secure? We can't just ignore the verses like the one posted above.

 

[AAA]

I believe so.

Mt 7
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ( From the beginning)

1st John 2:19 show people that appeared to be saved, but were not.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen AAA - you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is my writing on Matthew 24:10
-----------------------------------------------

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
----------------------------------------------------

As can be seen, Matthew 24:10 is the signs
that the Church Age ('this present age') continues:
from the Day of Pentacost, 33 AD /some say 30AD/
to 19 April 2007 and continues on until the
pretribuation rapture/resurrection. Amen.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Eternal life cannot be forfeited, else it was never eternal in the first place. It seems to me that people have trouble with the English language. Eternal means forever and ever. If Christ gives me eternal life (and he has, as he has promised through his word), then if it was possible to lose it in any way Christ would be lying. Eternal is forever. Once eternal stops, by definition it is no longer eternal, it is only temporary. You have changed the definition of eternal by saying that eternal life can be lost, forfeited, taken away, etc. That is why OSAS is true. If it weren't true Christ would be lying.

"I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never perish. No man shall pluck you out of my hand. My Father which gave them to me is greater than all, and no man shall be able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

To say that eternal life can either be lost or end is to make Christ a liar.

Amen, Brother DHK -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

While we are in Matthew 24 check this verse out:

Matthew 24:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
But he that shall endure vnto the end,
the same shall be saued.

In the if/then form:

If one endures unto the end,
then one shall be saved.

Note what it does NOT say:

If one endures NOT unto the end,
then one shall NOT be saved.

If this is true, prove it from the Bible.
The truth of
If one endures unto the end,
then one shall be saved.
is not necessarily the same truth as
If one endures NOT unto the end,
then one shall NOT be saved.
They are independent arguments (statement, point, proposition).

This statement is true (see Matthew 24:13):
If one endures unto the end,
then one shall be saved.

this statement need to be proved
from the Bible by other than Matthew 24:13:
If one endures NOT unto the end,
then one shall NOT be saved.

 

[AAA]

Amen AAA - you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

Thanks..n/t.............