Yos can't lose salvation!

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Some of the ideas concerning the notions of OSAS seem to go like this.

I know I am saved and cannot be deceived as to my standing with God!……………(while softly exclaiming that IF I happen to find myself outside of the kingdom, I must have really not been saved in the first place.)

I agree with BR. They do not ever know if they are really saved until they find out that either they were or they were not at some time in the future.

Before one objects ask yourself this one simple question. Does Scripture depict the real possibility of one being deceived as to their standing before God or not? Does the possibility exist that you could be deceived?

 

[drfuss]

HP: Before one objects ask yourself this one simple question. Does Scripture depict the real possibility of one being deceived as to their standing before God or not? Could you be deceived?

drfuss: Yes. The pharisees were decieved. Jesus said they thought they were saved by following the law, but that they were not.

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 7 Christ presents a very large group from WITHIN the church who say at the last day "LORD lord did we not.... IN YOUR NAME" .. arguing that they were ministers of Christ -- not merely "saved bench warmers". Yet even THEIR confidence was misplaced.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Heavenly Pilgrim: // ... no man can lose what
they have yet to realize in finality.//

Translation, Book, Chapter, amd Verse Please ...

John 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue
his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer
beleeueth in him, should not perish,
but haue euerlasting life.

When is the 'realize in finality' of
'everlasting life'? Can't be the end of 'everlasting
life' for everlasting life has no end.
So where can you take a good measure on
'everlasing life'? At the beginning:

Isaiah 46:910 (KJV1611 Edition):
Remember the former things of old,
for I am God, and there is none else,
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times the things
that are not yet done, saying,
My counsell shall stand, and I
wil doe all my pleasure:

God knows at the beginning of salvation,
that the salvation is real. Jesus Saves (period).

Please join me in celebrating my 55th Second Birthday
anniversary -- saved in April 1952, still saved in
April 2007, will still be saved when I die (or get raptured
when the Lord comes), will always be saved - OSAS.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: should not

HP: What do you think these words mean?

 

[AAA]

ok..N/T

Suggest you go back and read post # 121 again.

OK>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[AAA]

Ok. You see, BobRyan lists of many passages from the Bible mentioned on conditional.

So, I ask you a question, are these all passages of conditionals, to warn us that we would lose "Reward" at the judgment seat of Christ??? If so, please show us a single verse in the Bible that we will lose 'reward'. Thanks.

By the way, God doesn't interesting what kind of religion, you are. God only interesting in our hearts with our truly faith, actions with fruits.

Our fruits cannot be produce or growing, unless [BIF[/B] we moving with our faith.

Christ use many illustrations of objects apply our spiritual practical. Christ used tree and fruit. When we see literal trees and fruits out there outside, you see many trees are dying because of lack water. Also, fruits like as grapes, strawberries, etc. are dying or dead because of without water. LONG as they are continued dying without water or rain, by the conclusion, they die- period.

Water represents God's Word, if we continue thirst for God's Word daily, then our spiritual life would growing same with our fruit should be processing growing. Or, if we stopped eager or thirst for God's Word, and do not continue in Christ, then our spiritual would be die. There is not a single verse in the four gospels that, Christ gives us a hint that, we would lose our "rewards", but he simple telling us, if we failed to endure, growing, obey Him, then we would be cast away into the outer darkness. There will be no other second chance for a person would be finally released out of it beyond the judgment day according Matt. 25:30, and many other verses.

So, again, I ask you, can you find a single verse in the Bible saying that we will lose "reward", if we failed to meet God's command of conditionals. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Do you believe that salvation can be earned if we keep HIS conditionals commands?

 

[AAA]

DeafPosttrib: //So, I ask you a question, are these all passages of conditionals, to warn us that we would lose "Reward" at the judgment seat of Christ??? If so, please show us a single verse in the Bible that we will lose 'reward'. Thanks. //

If you get lost again, not meeting God's conditions,
then you can't get any rewards after your life.
You have asked an impossible question according to
your belief. That should tell you your belief is
in error.

Good point............

 

[AAA]

AGREED....

Believers can shipwreck thier faith...........

 

[AAA]

Interesting, the concept of 'presupposition'
is a PC (politically correct) term that comes
from the New Age Movement. When the
Declaration of Independence was written
the phrase was 'we hold these truths to be
self evident' (not 'presupposed', another term
for 'self evident truth' was 'axiom'.)

Now I've been a Christian for 55 years.
There is an unwritten rule When you have
been a Christian for 50 years you get to
keep your presuppositions.

Years ago I found out it is PC to search for the
truth, but if you ever find it, you are immediately
labeled 'bigot'. Sorry, I ain't going to play
the New Age/PC game. I'm keeping my
presuppositions. The truth isn't some feelie-good
statement - the Truth is a Person: and that Person
is Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, the Personal
Redeemer, the beginning and end of our Faith,
the Rock of our Salvation, etc.

One thing I see done wrong is that people make
the Presupposition: God Oopsed when He made
Free Will, so His Holy/Perfect Will can be overcome
by Free Will. Sorry, Free Will does NOT trump
God's Supreme Will. Jesus saves Eternally, not
till the first time Free Will rears it's ugly head
or the first time some frail Person oopses.

What do you mean by:God Oopsed when He made
Free Will, so His Holy/Perfect Will can be overcome
by Free Will?

 

[AAA]

Those who speak without action haven't been saved yet.



Those who hear but don't do haven't been saved yet.



Those who believe not are not saved.



Those in fear of loosing God's Salvation of them
are NOT standing by faith.



Blind'? He is most blind who will not see.
Jesus saves. OSAS is all about the FIDELITY of God
not the PIRFIDY of humans.

I like what you wrote.........

OSAS is all about the FIDELITY of God
not the PIRFIDY of humans.

 

[AAA]

A person that is abiding in Christ and then chooses to leave Christ of his own will has not lost his salvation nor has been "plucked" from the Father's hand. He has chosen to remove himself from the Father's hand and, thus, has chosen to turn away from / forfeit his salvation.

We are secure in Christ provided we continue to remain in Christ.

o.k...N/T.........

 

[AAA]

Quote:
drfuss: The OSAS believers continue to use this verse without including verse 27, "My sheep listen to My voice, I know them, and they follow Me". You take verses 28 & 29 out of context. If you listen to His voice and follow Him, you are continuing to trust Christ. Continuing to trust Christ is the criteria for applying verses 28 & 29. The implication is that if you stop trusting Christ, you are no longer His sheep as far as verses 28 & 29 are concerned.

Oasis writes:

Hi drfuss,

v.27"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me"
True Christians listen to His voice, He knows who we are, and because we are true Christians we will follow Him.

Just like countless examples throughout Scripture, I will fail because I am human, but I will never fall because Jesus Christ isn't. The Grace that was good enough to save me, is good enough to keep me.

Want one of many examples of human failure? Look at Peter. He was Mr. "foot in mouth". I can identify with him.:laugh: He could be hot and cold; bold and weak; all in the same 60 seconds. Remember in Matthew 16:23? Jesus rebuked him saying,
"Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
Just 7 verses before, Peter was saying,
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."-v.16
Look at Peter in Matthew 26 where Peter denies Christ three times as Christ said he would. But then after that the man became an unstopable teacher of Christ.

Peter is a walking rollercoaster, but he never jumped the tracks. Christ wouldn't let him. Peter's conscience as a true believer wouldn't let him.
Why? Go to Luke 22:31-32 where on the night He was betrayed, Christ tells Peter he's going to mess up.
"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you Simon, that your faith may not fail."
Peter failed, but his faith was never derailed.

The Lord's prayers for our faith do not go unheard. Look at Christ's intercession for us throughout Scripture.
In John 17:15-23 He prays that we will persevere in the faith.
In Hebrews 7:25 what does it say?
"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him because he always lives to intercede for them." The KJV translates the verse: "He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him..."

In my favorite chapter in Scripture, Romans 8, Paul caps my thoughts on this. Remember, Paul had just finished talking about his miserable failings in chapter 7.
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."-Romans 8:28-29
Here's the meat of this passage:
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."-v.30

We are spiritually glorified the moment we are justified; saved to the uttermost. It's incredible; it's baffling; but it's wonderfully true!...and not because of any of our doing, but whose?

"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."-Jude 24-25

We persevere when we allow Christ to work through us, and when Christ is in us we can not fail. He is the perfect keeper."


drfuss: Oasis, I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I said nothing about failing the Lord. I do believe your comments reflect the tendency of many OSAS believers to broad brush anyone who does not agree with OSAS as a Wesley Arminian or even a Catholic (good works).

I was only talking about a Christian who makes a decision to stop trusting Christ as Savior, i.e. forfeiting his salvation. If someone stops trusting Christ by deciding to forfeit his salvation, he forfeits being his sheep.

Now if the scripture said: "My sheep listens to My voice, I know them, and they cannot stop trusting in Me", then OSAS would be established. But no where in scripture does it say a Christian can not stop trusting Christ.

IMHO, that scripture does not support OSAS, and implies a conflict with OSAS. As I said in a previous post, OSAS Christians have been told and used this scripture as supporting OSAS for so long, that they have trouble stepping back and considerings another interpretation.

It is so important to let the scripture be interpreted by the HOLY GHOST instead of men's ideas about the bible...............

 

[AAA]

The born again child of God is infected with the sinFUL nature "still" as we see in Romans 7.

Adam "the son of God" (Luke 3) was NOT infected with that sinFUL nature and SITLL he chose to sin.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

Yes the point remians that no one has yet proven that a christian can lose his/her salvation................

 

[AAA]

AAA

Hi AAA,

Good question.
I know I can't, and Scripture doesn't.

:godisgood:

AMEN.........

Thanks for your comment

 

[Oasis]

drfuss

drfuss: Oasis, I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I said nothing about failing the Lord. I do believe your comments reflect the tendency of many OSAS believers to broad brush anyone who does not agree with OSAS as a Wesley Arminian or even a Catholic (good works).

Hi drfuss,

My point, made in my post, was that regardless of Peter's failures he could not lose his salvation because it was not his to lose.

You know druss, I couldn't tell you what a Wesley Arminian is. When I came to my understanding of OSAS, I thought Calvin had a companion named Hobbs; I only knew that Wesley was a great hymn writer; and Luther's last name was Vandross. It's wonderful to study these men's opinions and read the history of the church, but it's also sad that these days most discussions revolve more around men like these than Scripture itself. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here. It's just a general observation.

Maybe it will help to give you a mini bio of me. I was born and raised in a "work to gain it" religion that thought every religion except theirs was going to hell. After 30 years of believing that baptism saved me; human failings condemned me; there was no rapture; and there would be no tribulation or millenial reign of Jesus Christ; I gave up. There was no human way to save myself, or do enough on my own to make it to the end. If you haven't already made a good guess....Non-insturmental church of christ.

Three years later I had just opened my first business and I knew something was missing in my life. So, I pulled out my Bible and during slow times I started reading and studying on my own. Man were my eyes opened! I was studying free from the bonds of cofc tradition/doctrine. One of my regular customers kept inviting me to his church...a Southern Baptist Church no less. I'd heard some about them. Cofc preachers loved to rail against Baptists of any kind.

I'll cut to the chase. I visited that congregation. Over time I realized that they believed what I'd already found out just by studying on my own and letting Scripture speak without man helping. I now knew what Grace and faith meant, and had found a group of people that agreed with Scripture said about it too. At age 33 I went forward and for the first and last time genuinely gave my life to Christ. When I went forward, I was not a believer in OSAS. It was two years of studying on my own before I became convicted that I had been mistaught and I finally came to an understanding of what perseverence of the Saints truly meant. It is and always has been a much misunderstood subject. Much of the misunderstanding, imho, lies in man's inability to completely give himself to Christ. So in answer to your statement immediately below...I spent 30 years believing another interpretation.

As I said in a previous post, OSAS Christians have been told and used this scripture as supporting OSAS for so long, that they have trouble stepping back and considerings another interpretation.

To quote another Luther...Martin Luther...
"Free at last! Free at last! Free at last! Thank God I'm free at last!

Now if the scripture said: "My sheep listens to My voice, I know them, and they cannot stop trusting in Me", then OSAS would be established. But no where in scripture does it say a Christian can not stop trusting Christ.

No where in Scripture does it say a Christian can stop trusting Christ. His keeping power is perfect even though we aren't.

"No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nore any powers(btw, that includes us ), neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."(emphasis mine)-Romans 8:37-39 NIV
Have a great day drfuss!:godisgood:

 

[JDale]

I do understand that you do NOT believe that you can lose your salvation and you say: a christian can forfeit his/her salvation, because there is a BIG difference in the two...

The OP is dealing with the subject of lost of salvation, not if we can forfeit salvation or NOT..............

And you are correct -- sorry I was "beating a dead horse." I think most of us agree that a believer cannot "lose" his/her salvation.

JDale

 

[JDale]

drfuss

No where in Scripture does it say a Christian can stop trusting Christ. His keeping power is perfect even though we aren't.

"No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nore any powers(btw, that includes us ), neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."(emphasis mine)-Romans 8:37-39 NIV
Have a great day drfuss!:godisgood:

Oasis:

Your statement that "nowhere in Scripture say a Christian can stop trusting Christ..." is not accurate -- as has been pointed out by myself and others on many threads citing a number of Scriptures.

Also, your quote of Romans 8:37-39, in which you include your words "btw, that includes us" is your interpretation -- or MISinterpretation, of this passage. Nowhere does this passage address the issue of continuance in faith. It DOES deal with the FACT that nothing and NNE outside our own being can in any way endanger our SECURE salvation in Christ.

As I noted above, Scripture makes clear the need to "continue in the faith," and demonstrates the possibility of NOT doing so, and thus apostasizing...

JDale

 

[Ed Edwards]

Drfuss: //IMHO, that scripture does not support OSAS,
and implies a conflict with OSAS. As I said
in a previous post, OSAS Christians have been told
and used this scripture as supporting OSAS
for so long, that they have trouble stepping back
and considerings another interpretation.//

That is so NEW AGE
It is in the spirit of PC = politically correct.
Why don't YOU step back and reconsider???

PC says: It is good to be seeking the truth;
but if you ever find the Truth: you will be
immediately labeled a BIGOT.

Well I've found out that the truth isn't some
warm/fuzzy makin' idear -- Truth is a person:
the person of Jesus, the Messiah.

BTW please join me this week celebrating my 55th
Second Birth anniversery. Yep, April 1952 was
when I first confessed Jesus as my Lord which
believing in my heart that God raised Him from the
dead. Then Jesus became my Savior as well as my
Lord. Amen! Praise Jesus \o/ \o/

ccdnt: // As long as we continue to have faith in Jesus,
we remain secure in Christ.//

As long as we remain secure in Christ, we
continue to have faith in Jesus.

 

[drfuss]

Oasis:

Your statement that "nowhere in Scripture say a Christian can stop trusting Christ..." is not accurate -- as has been pointed out by myself and others on many threads citing a number of Scriptures.

Also, your quote of Romans 8:37-39, in which you include your words "btw, that includes us" is your interpretation -- or MISinterpretation, of this passage. Nowhere does this passage address the issue of continuance in faith. It DOES deal with the FACT that nothing and NNE outside our own being can in any way endanger our SECURE salvation in Christ.

As I noted above, Scripture makes clear the need to "continue in the faith," and demonstrates the possibility of NOT doing so, and thus apostasizing...

JDale

drfuss: Good answer, Jdale. I completely concur.