You shall surely die

[Alan Gross]

We all experienced spiritual death. It is not until we are made alive in Christ - born of the Spirit - that we experience spiritual life.

That said, Scripture has a different time frame.

Adam sinned.
His eyes were opened to knowing good and evil.
God pronounced a curse - the land will be cursed and Adam will return to the ground from which he was formed.
God clothed Adam.
God separated Adam from Himself.

We agree about this separation, but how can you say it occurred the instant Adam sinned when Scripture says it did not?

We all experienced spiritual death.

in Adam.

We all experienced our spiritual death in Adam.

Romans 5:12
King James Version

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ephesians 2:2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Romans 5:19

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

King James Version (KJV)

 

[JonC]

He is dead on concerning spirituals death and Adam, as we are all spiritually dead as being found in Adam, and come spiritual alive again in Christ!

Some of MacArthur's comments are right (per Scripture) and others are his own extra-biblical views.

Scripture does not say that Adam would die on the day he eats of the fruit. So MacArthur supposed it was God's mercy to allow him to live.

 

[JonC]

in Adam.

We all experienced our spiritual death in Adam.

Romans 5:12
King James Version

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ephesians 2:2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Romans 5:19

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

King James Version (KJV)

Amen.

In terms of this separation we all experience this. We not only experience this, but until reborn this is all we experience (so obviously this is not the "death" that spreads to all man because all have sinned).

 

[Reynolds]

I always half way agree with JohnnyMac

There are a few things I 0% agree with him about.

 

[JesusFan]

I am not sure "corrupted" is the correct word (since it is not the word used in God's Word).

But yes, there were changes Adam experienced.

Adam's eyes were opened and he became as God knowing good and evil. Also, to prevent Adam from eating of the Tree of Life he was separated from God by being cast out of the Garden.

How does the version of Scripture you are using word those passages?

His nature changed from being sinless to a sin nature, correct?

 

[JesusFan]

There are a few things I 0% agree with him about.

such as Psa and spiritual death!

 

[JesusFan]

Amen.

In terms of this separation we all experience this. We not only experience this, but until reborn this is all we experience (so obviously this is not the "death" that spreads to all man because all have sinned).

All in Adam are now spiritual dead in their sins and transgressions, correct?

 

[JonC]

His nature changed from being sinless to a sin nature, correct?

We should go to the Bible and see, correct?

That way we are essentially asking God and whatever He says in His Word is true.



Idea - Perhaps Adam's nature changed from being sinless to a sin nature when he sinned.

What does the Bible say?

Question - What happened to Adam when he ate of the fruit?

Answer - Genesis 3:21 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil". and Genesis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened".

Is the answer God gives in His Word good enough, or do you believe we should add something to make it better?

 

[JonC]

All in Adam are now spiritual dead in their sins and transgressions, correct?

Without Christ there is no spiritual life. He is the Life.

 

[Reynolds]

such as Psa and spiritual death!

Not those. I agree with him on those.

 

[percho]

Gen 2:17 says "on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die."
Physical death did not happen on the day he ate.
Guess we could argue that it began.

From Hebrews 2:6,7 YLT
'What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers,

Is that Adam as spoken of in Gen 2:7?
Is the following of that same Adam if he is resurrected when Christ returns?

From Luke 20:36 YLT
for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like (equal to?) messengers --
οὔτε γὰρ ἀποθανεῖν ἔτι δύνανται ἰσάγγελοι γάρ εἰσιν - TR
οὐδὲ γὰρ ἀποθανεῖν ἔτι δύνανται ἰσάγγελοι γάρ εἰσιν - GNT

Was Adam created because of, the death of which the devil had the power thereof? The serpent in the garden where God put the man he had created.

Hebrews 2:14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through (the) death he might destroy him having the power of (the) death -- that is, the devil --

1 John 3:8 KJV He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I will ask. Did the devil need to be destroyed before the man was created? Did the devil have any works before the man was created?

Gen 2:17 YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

You will and all those born of woman after you will be brought forth, dead in tress pass and sins.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[percho]

Adam experienced spiritual death, as that happened right when he sinned against the lord, as he now needed a Savior!

! Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is (the) death.

Exactly which one is this (the)?

BTW What does, "the," even mean in English and or Greek?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Very good points.

My answer would be that the wages of sin is death (physical death) and that we do pay these wages.

What we escape is not the wages of sin but God's wrath against the wicked when they are judged (at Judgement).

Even when sins are forgiven consequences remain. What is removed is not the outcome of our sin but the judgment against us.

We see this throughout Scripture. Moses could not enter the Promised Land. David's child died. Israel went into captivity.

But God bring eternal and unchanging did not, IMHO, take away the wages of sin. Instead He took the "sting" from death by saving us not from death but through death. We must die with Christ, die to the flesh, because all flesh will perish.

This is not to say that I disagree with you about separation. I just see this separation as not being, specifically, the wages of sin.

this makes no sense.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

I am saved the moment I have faith in God. Long before my physical death.

Physical death is one of the many outcomes of sin. Not the penalty of sin.

If, As you say, It was the penalty. No one would go to hell because we make our own payment.

 

[JesusFan]

We should go to the Bible and see, correct?

That way we are essentially asking God and whatever He says in His Word is true.



Idea - Perhaps Adam's nature changed from being sinless to a sin nature when he sinned.

What does the Bible say?

Question - What happened to Adam when he ate of the fruit?

Answer - Genesis 3:21 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil". and Genesis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened".

Is the answer God gives in His Word good enough, or do you believe we should add something to make it better?

Do you deny that we are spiritual dead in Adam, and that we have been born with fallen sin natures?

 

[JesusFan]

Without Christ there is no spiritual life. He is the Life.

Are all spiritual dead in sin and transgressions then before saved?

 

[JesusFan]

Not those. I agree with him on those.

i do also!

 

[JesusFan]

this makes no sense.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

I am saved the moment I have faith in God. Long before my physical death.

Physical death is one of the many outcomes of sin. Not the penalty of sin.

If, As you say, It was the penalty. No one would go to hell because we make our own payment.

The penalty of sin is our spiritual death, which in the end gets us judged into eternal lake of fire if not saved!

 

[JonC]

this makes no sense.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

I am saved the moment I have faith in God. Long before my physical death.

Physical death is one of the many outcomes of sin. Not the penalty of sin.

If, As you say, It was the penalty. No one would go to hell because we make our own payment.

I am not saying physical death is a penalty in a legal sense. It is the wages or consequences of sin. Being that God is immutable salvation is not about changing what God said but saving in accordance with what God has said.

I am not saying we make our own payment.

I am saying It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.

The wrath we escape in Christ is the Judgment (which is Christ-centered) not the wages of sin (which is man centered).

 

[JonC]

Are all spiritual dead in sin and transgressions then before saved?

Yes.

 

[JonC]

Do you deny that we are spiritual dead in Adam, and that we have been born with fallen sin natures?

We all died in Adam, and we have been born with human natures and minds "set on the flesh".

Did you deny that Genesis 3:21 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil". and Genesis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both of them were opened" are sufficient to describe what happened with Adam?