You've GOT to watch this - please

[rbell]

The Scriptures clearly forbid excess and riot in the life of a Christian. Any manner of interaction, and music is interaction, which can be called excessive or riotous is condemned.

Hilarious. I've not heard that particular torture of scripture before. I'm sure you could look through my music and tell exactly what music was "good" (17th century Renaissance) and what music was "evil" (Psalty's kid music). I know you're arguments...I used to lap up Bill Gothard's junk like a good Pharisee.

Face it, Aaron...you're extrabiblical and pharasaical with your rules. You get obliterated in logic, in exegesis, and in science every time you post on this subject. But keep it coming...I need the recreation.

And, like Tinytim says, most that use your defense carry a racist undertone. "the line of Ham" argument is always lurking somewhere.

 

[Su Wei]

1. The Good News of the Gospel--whether spoken, written, or set to music, is evangelistic by definition.

No, i mean, is there an instance in the bible where it says to sing to sinners for them to get saved?
Did Jesus tell his disciples to go forth into all the world and sing?

 

[tinytim]

No, but Paul and Silas singing in Prison must of had an effect on the jailor.

 

[Aaron]

1. The Good News of the Gospel...set to music, is evangelistic by definition.

But it's not preaching, and we're told very explicitly that God's chosen method of evangelism is preaching.

 

[Aaron]

I just ask tinytim for the same standard of evidence that he demands of others, and now I'm a racist, judgmental pharisee devoid of God's grace.

I answer rbell's challenge, and he, lacking any originality, merely parrots tim's railing accusations. And get this, the subtexts of their homilies are all about their being more righteous, gracious, biblical and knowledgable than I am.

But that's par for the course when dealing with the CCM crowd, and it's great fun to point it out.

I have as bout as much scripture that says that as you do on which toilet paper to use...

Let's try to stay on topic. Toilet paper is an object used for personal hygiene. Music is a mode of interaction. Though God has expressed His will on both subjects, music is nothing like toilet paper.

Some things are common sense...

You mean like perceiving the difference between music and toilet paper?

...and God expects us to use our common sense.... He didn't have to tell us everything. He gave most of us a brain.

So all forms of music are hallowed because you think they are, and the only authority you need to validate your notion is that God gave you the brain that spawned the thought.

God never said we shouldn't use charmin, and He never said not to listen to Rap....

Did He say we should?

Please quit being a pharisee and adding extra-biblical nonsense to God's word.

Extra-biblical nonsense? You mean like the maxim: "There is nothing worldly about any style of Music"?

Yes judgemental.. that is what it all boils down to..

We're to judge all things and prove all things. So I'll ask you again, do you have any Scripture on which to base your assertion that all forms of music are hallowed?

No drums because they came from the colored.

I've never made that argument. Not once.

Now no hip hop because it is "black"

What? Who are you talking to?

Oh you may say it is because it is pagan, but what does your kind really mean? It came from Africa...

You have no answer for the pagan argument, so you turn it into a racist argument. That doesn't work with people to whom God gave brains.

Am I angry? I sure am, because of your alls attitude that you are Godlier than everyone else just because you listen to "Godly music"

Are you sure it isn't because I'm just holding you to the same standard you want to hold me?

Praise God for whoever lifts praises to Him in whatever form they want.

Again, not a Scriptural notion. On the contrary, quite antithetical to Christ's words about those whom God seeks to worship Him.

 

[Aaron]

Face it, Aaron...you're extrabiblical and pharasaical with your rules. You get obliterated in logic, in exegesis, and in science every time you post on this subject.

I'm still waiting for the obliteration. Until then, see my response to tim.:type:

 

[Rufus_1611]

Extra-biblical nonsense? You mean like the maxim: "There is nothing worldly about any style of Music"?

Speaking of maxims, here's another one that seems to apply to this thread. It comes from the father of the music that is being promoted here...

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole law."

 

[rbell]

I remember being a 7th grader...going to Bill Gothard's seminars, and being lied to. I remember going to hear a "renowned expert on Satanic Backmasking" and being lied to. I remember going to hear an "ex rock musician" (found out later that he was let go because he wasn't any good) who had gotten saved and discovered that evil drum beats were from "the line of Ham" (I couldn't make this racist bile up), and being lied to. I remember being forbidden in the early '80's from going to a "awful, satanic, terrible" concert by one of the "biggest reprobates"--Dallas Holm (the author of the song "Rise Again."). I was being lied to.

Then I discovered what the Word doesn't say about specific musical styles, and I quit allowing myself to be lied to.

Of course, I've typed this disclaimer a bunch, and Aaron ignores it every time (because he has no answer for it), but here it goes again: there is some "CCM" that is junk. And there is some amazing modern music out there. Not everything in the "christian" genre is appropriate for worship. Not everything in the "christian" genre tells the entire Easter story, front to back.

So we use this little thing called wisdom. I am thankful to God that He has brought me to the place that I can be discerning and wise in this one little area, and not pharasaical, legalistic, and extrabiblical.

And I don't even have to lie to anyone to make my point, as I was lied to years ago.

Now...I'm not accusing anyone here of lying (unless you believe that "line of Ham" garbage), though I've seen lies posted before in other threads. You guys have issues with "CCM?" (an undefinable term, by the way...totally subjective) Then don't listen to it.

R1611...since you're asserting that "CCM" is of the devil (OK, one lie in this thread):

• We need your great wisdom here. Tell me: is a song in 4/4 time with only a snare drum satanic? How about 6/8 time? Is a 96 tempo satanic? 120? 140? Are the cymbals not satanic, but the snare and toms are? Is a "southern gospel" electric slide guitar satanic? Is an acoustic guitar satanic? How about a 5/4 time signature? Is using a string voice on a synthesizer satanic? How about a "square wave" solo voice on a synthesizer? Are congas and bongos satanic? Tambourines? Bass guitar? How about an acoustic bass? Is "gold city quartet" a satanic group? How about an upbeat arrangement of "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" with trumpet fanfare, and bass and snare drums with cymbals? Is Dallas Holm's "Rise Again" satanic? A good friend of mine sang that with piano last week at an IFB...tell me so I can condemn her. Exactly how much of a drum beat equates to satanic influence? If a musician sells his or her work, is it satanic? Be sure and tell George Frederich Handel if that is the case. The percussion instruments in the Old Testament...when did they become satanic, if they did? During the Macabean period? Or when Elvis picked one up? Is Psalty praise songs satanic? He uses very light drum work in his word-for-word singing of some Psalms.

Uh oh, I think I stumped ya...

 

[Rufus_1611]

Uh oh, I think I stumped ya...

Yes. You are impressive. Just one question in reply. Did Robert Johnson actually develop his talent?

 

[rbell]

Ah, yes, the "Robert Johnson and the Devil's guitar" legend...

For those of you just joining us...

Robert Johnson, a 1930's-era blues guitarist, supposedly one night met the devil (in disguise as a black man...how's that for racial profiling?). Johnson, without much talent at the time, wanted to be talented, so he gave his guitar to the "devil," who then gave it back to him. He immediately was a virtuoso (though those close to him said his expertise took about a year or two...how time flies, huh?). He was a hard-drinkin', woman-chasin' scoundrel, who probably died by poisoning. He always talked about being bound for hell...which, unfortunately, he probably was.

Now that ya'll have had your history lesson, let me conclude...

Because rufus believes an urban legend about a blues guitarist, Bill Gaither is of the devil.

Does that about sum it up?:tongue3:

 

[tinytim]

rbell, why do we even try...This debate is going to go on until Gabriel blows his horn....er.... plays his banjo.

Obviously, there is no biblical evidence to show CCM is of the devil.
As there is no biblical evidence to show that it is of God.

Worship comes from the heart. The heart of the individual, not the heart of a guitar, or snare drum.

I feel sorry for those that feel they cannot worship God outside of puritan legalistic theology. They are missing something special.

Aaron... I never used the word racist...
I never said you were... I was referring to the arguments and lies I grew up with in a racist environment.
(But I think you see my point with the posts above about johnson)

And as for the toilet tissue bit, I was being intentionally ridiculous to show the absurdity to holding everything we do to only what is in the Bible.

The Bible doesn't cover everything. But it does give guidelines for wisdom. It doesn't say "thou shalt have Sunday School" But it does tell us to teach. It doesn't say "thou shalt not listen to rap" But it does tell us how to worship.... And Gospel rap is spiritual.

Feel free to tear this post apart to show your superiority. But I will keep on worshipping God. For He is worthy to be praised.

rbell, I give up on this... actually, it is not worth my time... I got some witnessing to do.....

 

[Rufus_1611]

Johnson, without much talent at the time, wanted to be talented, so he gave his guitar to the "devil," who then gave it back to him. He immediately was a virtuoso (though those close to him said his expertise took about a year or two...how time flies, huh?).

"He'd sit at our feet and play during the break and such another racket you never heard." - Son House

"He (Robert Johnson) made the audiences mad with his racket." - Son House

"He (Robert Johnson) was a talentless and irritating guitar player." - Son House

"But he'd follow me and Willie around on Saturday night, me and Willie Brown and every time we stopped to rest and set a guitar over on a corner or something to go out and catch air you know, he'd get the guitar and be trying to play it and be just noisin' the people.

And the folks they would come out and say 'Why don't ya all go in there and make that boy put that thing down. He's runnin us crazy.' Finally he left and ran off from his father and mother and he went over in Arkansas some place. He was gone about 6 - 8 months" - Son House

"So then he came back, me and Willie Brown was playing and he walked in he said 'Can I hit a lick or two' I said now don't come back with that Robert I said you know that people don't want to hear that racket. He said 'Let them say what they want to say. I want to show you what I learned.' When he finished all our mouths were standing open" - Son House

"He sold his soul to the devil to play like that." - Son House

"I never seen him have to practice. I never seen him have to sit down and a learn a song. He already knew it." - Johnny Shines

Me and the devil blues - Robert Johnson
Early this morning
When you knocked on my door
And I said, "Hello Satan
I believe it's time to go.

Me and the devil
Was walkin side by side
Me and the devil
Was walkin side by side

And I'm goin to beat my woman
Until I get satisfied.

Hellhound on my Trail - Robert Johnson
I've got to keep movin, keep movin
and the day keeps on worryin me.

It's a hellhound on my trail
hellhound on my trail
hellhound on my trail
hellhound on my trail"


(Source: They Sold their souls for rock and roll Part 2 of 4 )

 

[rbell]

The Logical Progression:

a. Robert Johnson compromised with satan (some say) to play the guitar;
b. I heard a guitar once in a Bill Gaither album; so
c. Bill Gaither is of the devil; he is Robert Johnson's brother in law (by
blood oath).

Rufus, you haven't answered any of my questions in post 68. Is it because you can't?

 

[Rufus_1611]

The Logical Progression:

a. Robert Johnson compromised with satan (some say) to play the guitar;
b. I heard a guitar once in a Bill Gaither album; so
c. Bill Gaither is of the devil; he is Robert Johnson's brother in law (by
blood oath).

Rufus, you haven't answered any of my questions in post 68. Is it because you can't?

Contemporary christian rock and roll and contemporary christian rap get their roots from African voodoo, New Orleans Jazz, New Orleans Blues, Robert Johnson, Bill Haley and the Comets, Jerry Lee Lewis, Aleister Crowley, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, the Eagles, Anton Lavey, and a whole host of other characters.

I'm not going to answer your 24 questions. If it will stroke your ego to have me say you have a greater technical knowledge of music...you got it. However, it will not change that the Bible says to sing Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs and you folks that like to walk together with Amy Grant, TobyMac, Sandi Patti, Newsboys, Natalie Grant, DC Talk, POD et al may as well be walking together with the bands listed in the first paragraph. The groups in the first paragraph are obviously playing satans tunes, the groups in the second are just more subtle.

 

[James_Newman]

I'm still wondering about my question. Is there even the possibility that 'Christian' rock or rap could lead someone into more mainstream secular music, and out of the church?

 

[ccrobinson]

Rufus wrote the following nonsense:

The groups in the first paragraph are obviously playing satans tunes, the groups in the second are just more subtle.

Sandi Patti is not my favorite artist, but she certainly doesn't deserve to be lumped in with Led Zeppelin and Anton Lavey. How knowledgeable are you about Christian music, because I believe your knowledge is lacking.

Here's how subtle Sandi Patti is. She sang a song titled "In the Name of the Lord" that has these lyrics in the chorus.

There Is Strength In The Name Of The Lord
There Is Power In The Name Of The Lord
There Is Hope In The Name Of The Lord
Blessed Is He Who Comes In The Name Of The Lord

How does this fit in with your idea that she sings "satan's music"?

 

[James_Newman]

I'm still wondering about my question. Is there even the possibility that 'Christian' rock or rap could lead someone into more mainstream secular music, and out of the church?

I'll go ahead and answer my question for me. Yes, it is possible for a Christian to listen to 'Christian' rock and rap, and develop a taste for that style of music, and start listening to other music that is not coated with 'Christian'. Can that lead a person away from their faith? Apparently it did so for the man in the article I posted. What does that mean for every 'Christian' artist that is swimming in the grey area between light and darkness?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Rufus wrote the following nonsense:

Sandi Patti is not my favorite artist, but she certainly doesn't deserve to be lumped in with Led Zeppelin and Anton Lavey. How knowledgeable are you about Christian music, because I believe your knowledge is lacking.

Here's how subtle Sandi Patti is. She sang a song titled "In the Name of the Lord" that has these lyrics in the chorus.

How does this fit in with your idea that she sings "satan's music"?

The CCM artist is an idol just like the Beatles, Led Zeppelin or any other secular artist. They target a young audience, their fans purchase tickets to their concerts, they buy their CDs, they raise them up on a stage, and celebrate how great they are.

"Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." - 1 John 5:21​

The CCM Rock artist is engaged in sensual fleshly music (regardless of the lyrics) that encourages fornication and adultery. Sandi Patti is a case-study for this issue as she was engaging in adultery with multiple married partners during the same time period that she was wailing her "spiritual Christian rock" to the masses. In addition, she divorced her husband and married one of her adulterous companions.

"Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness." - Proverbs 30:20​

I would submit that it is likely that this would not have been an issue had she been a woman who was singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and was being discreet, chaste and a keeper at home.

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." - Colossians 3:16

"To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." - Titus 2:5​

(Source: Christian Rock Exposed by Terry Watkins)

 

[Aaron]

Of course, I've typed this disclaimer a bunch, and Aaron ignores it every time (because he has no answer for it), but here it goes again: there is some "CCM" that is junk. And there is some amazing modern music out there. Not everything in the "christian" genre is appropriate for worship. Not everything in the "christian" genre tells the entire Easter story, front to back.

What am I supposed to answer in your "disclaimer"?

When you reply include an answer to this question. Are there any styles of music which can be classified as riotous? Excessive?

 

[Aaron]

Obviously, there is no biblical evidence to show CCM is of the devil.
As there is no biblical evidence to show that it is of God.

If God has not expressed His will concerning styles of music, then you're just asserting your own will. How does that line up with, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done?

Worship comes from the heart. The heart of the individual, not the heart of a guitar, or snare drum.

That's irrelevant. God expects a certain outward decorum in Christian gatherings, and any music inconsistent with that decorum is to be shunned.

I feel sorry for those that feel they cannot worship God outside of puritan legalistic theology. They are missing something special.

Actually, you are the one to be pitied. Define for us puritan legalistic theology.

Aaron... I never used the word racist...

You didn't have to. You meant it. It's obvious to the most casual observer.

I never said you were...

You said, "...but what does your kind really mean? It came from Africa..." That's the same thing in anyone's book. Look, you called me a racist. Don't try to spin it, and don't worry. I'm not bothered in the least. I just pointed it out to show the lack of substance in your response.

I was referring to the arguments and lies I grew up with in a racist environment.
(But I think you see my point with the posts above about johnson)

Never heard of Johnson till now, and leave your childhood out of the discussions. I promise you, I come from a point of view quite different from what you're used to.

And as for the toilet tissue bit, I was being intentionally ridiculous to show the absurdity to holding everything we do to only what is in the Bible.

If by this you mean that many things are implied in the Scriptures where there is no straightforward verbatim, then I agree. But for Baptists, the Scriptures are the only rule of faith and practice.

The Bible doesn't cover everything. But it does give guidelines for wisdom. It doesn't say "thou shalt have Sunday School" But it does tell us to teach. It doesn't say "thou shalt not listen to rap" But it does tell us how to worship

So far so good.

.... And Gospel rap is spiritual.

And this is the thing you need to prove.

Feel free to tear this post apart to show your superiority.

Okay.

But I will keep on worshipping God. For He is worthy to be praised.

Whatever.

rbell, I give up on this... actually, it is not worth my time... I got some witnessing to do.....

Georgie Porgie Pudding and pie
Kissed the girls and made them cry.
But when the boys came out to play
Georgie Porgie ran away...and said, "What a good boy am I!" :saint: