Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

[Luke2427]

Sinning in your heart is actually doing something. Jesus said if a man looks on a woman to lust after her in his heart he has committed adultery with her.

Rebellion is bound in the heart of a child. Rebellion is sin. It is there from the womb. It is the nature of people to sin. Why do people sin- because they are sinners. When did they become sinners? Not when they sinned- but when they were in their mother's womb inheriting their father Adam's sin nature.

A rattlesnake is a killer before it ever kills. It is a NATURAL born killer.

A human is a sinner before ever sins- he is a natural born sinner.

There is not a verse of Scripture in the Word of God that says that children are not sinners but there are a host that say that they are.

But you are once again getting off topic.

 

[Winman]

First of all, the scriptures do not say rebellion is bound in the heart of a child.

Prov 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Foolishness is quite different from rebellion.

A rattlesnake is born with the ability to kill, but it is not a killer until it kills.

Man is born with the ability to sin just as Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin or else they could not. And that destroys your doctrine, for God said they were "very good" even though they had this ability. No, they did not become evil until they actually exercised this ability and actually sinned. Having the ability does not make you evil, exercising the ability does.

My car has the ability to kill a person, but I am not a killer until I use that car to purposely run over and kill someone.

The scriptures say we are made after the similitude of God.

James 3:Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Similitude means likeness. And this is New Testament, and it is not speaking of Adam.

 

[annsni]

I had asked if, since people are born sinless, if we can continue to be sinless if we tried. Surely if we are born sinless there must have been one other person in this entire history of mankind who was able to never sin through his/her entire life other than Jesus.

 

[Luke2427]

First of all, the scriptures do not say rebellion is bound in the heart of a child.

Prov 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Foolishness is quite different from rebellion.

A rattlesnake is born with the ability to kill, but it is not a killer until it kills.

Man is born with the ability to sin just as Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin or else they could not. And that destroys your doctrine, for God said they were "very good" even though they had this ability. No, they did not become evil until they actually exercised this ability and actually sinned. Having the ability does not make you evil, exercising the ability does.

My car has the ability to kill a person, but I am not a killer until I use that car to purposely run over and kill someone.

The scriptures say we are made after the similitude of God.

James 3:Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Similitude means likeness. And this is New Testament, and it is not speaking of Adam.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child,.... That is, sin, the greatest of all folly; this is naturally in the heart of man; it is in the heart of a child, it is in him from his infancy; it is bound in his heart, it is rooted and riveted in him, being conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity; it is what cleaves close to him, and he has a strong affection for and desire after: the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, Genesis 8:21; so that he is not easily brought off of sin, or becomes wise;

but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him; the rod used by parents, for the correction of sin and folly, is a means of making children wise, and of restraining the folly that is bound up in them; and of reclaiming them from those sinful ways, which the folly of their hearts leads them to, and so in some measure of driving it far from them.
Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament

15 Folly is bound to the heart of a child;

The rod of correction driveth it forth.

Folly, i.e., pleasure in stupid tricks, silly sport, and foolish behaviour, is the portion of children as such; their heart is as yet childish, and folly is bound up in it. Education first driveth forth this childish, foolish nature (for, as Menander says:

Ὁ μὴ δαρεὶς ἄνθρωπος οὐ παιδεύεται),

and if effects this when it is unindulgently severe: the שׁבט מוּסר (vid., Proverbs 23:13) removeth אוּלת from the heart, for it imparts intelligence and makes wise (Proverbs 29:15). The lxx is right in rendering 16a: ἄνοια ἐξῆπται (from ἐξάπτειν) καρδίας νέου; but the Syr. has "here mangled the lxx, and in haste has read ἀνοίᾳ ἐξίπταται: folly makes the understanding of the child fly away" (Lagarde).

 

[Winman]

I had asked if, since people are born sinless, if we can continue to be sinless if we tried. Surely if we are born sinless there must have been one other person in this entire history of mankind who was able to never sin through his/her entire life other than Jesus.

Well, I can't speak for others, but I have not been able to live without sinning.

How about you?

I did know a fellow who belonged to a Holiness church who believed you could stop sinning. He said there was an old man in his church who had not sinned for years.

I bet him he could not go 24 hours without sinning, to which he replied, "Oh, that's easy! I can go 24 hours without sinning easily!"

I said, "Well, you just blew it, the scriptures say boasting is a sin, and you just boasted."

He got red in the face and for a second I thought he might take a swing at me. He rarely talked to me after that.

No, the scriptures say all have sinned.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I do not say children do not sin. I have eight children, believe me, I know that children sin. But I do not believe God holds babies and little children accountable until they reach a certain maturity and understand the difference between right and wrong. The scriptures support this, God allowed the children of Israel to enter the promised land, but their parents who sinned died in the wilderness.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God did not punish the little ones and the children that had no knowledge between good and evil. They were allowed to enter the promised land which is a figure of heaven.

So, as you can see, what you know or don't know is important as to whether you are accountable. If you have the knowledge between good and evil you are accountable.

 

[Winman]

Foolishness means folly. Yes, foolishness can be sin, but not all foolishness is sin. We have kid songs in church, jumping up and down, turning in circles, stomping our feet. It might be called foolish, but the kids enjoy it and it is not sinful.

 

[Luke2427]

Foolishness means folly. Yes, foolishness can be sin, but not all foolishness is sin.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child,.... That is, sin, the greatest of all folly; this is naturally in the heart of man; it is in the heart of a child, it is in him from his infancy;

 

[annsni]

Well, I can't speak for others, but I have not been able to live without sinning.

How about you?

I did know a fellow who belonged to a Holiness church who believed you could stop sinning. He said there was an old man in his church who had not sinned for years.

I bet him he could not go 24 hours without sinning, to which he replied, "Oh, that's easy! I can go 24 hours without sinning easily!"

I said, "Well, you just blew it, the scriptures say boasting is a sin, and you just boasted."

He got red in the face and for a second I thought he might take a swing at me. He rarely talked to me after that.

No, the scriptures say all have sinned.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I do not say children do not sin. I have eight children, believe me, I know that children sin. But I do not believe God holds babies and little children accountable until they reach a certain maturity and understand the difference between right and wrong. The scriptures support this, God allowed the children of Israel to enter the promised land, but their parents who sinned died in the wilderness.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God did not punish the little ones and the children that had no knowledge between good and evil. They were allowed to enter the promised land which is a figure of heaven.

So, as you can see, what you know or don't know is important as to whether you are accountable. If you have the knowledge between good and evil you are accountable.

Now you said earlier that babies are not sinners but here you said that they are.

I disagree that God does not hold people accountable for sin just because they don't know it's a sin but I think that He instead can impart grace and cover the sin with the blood of His Son if He so chooses. But I do not see in Scripture where God says that there is an "age of accountability" even if we use the age of Israelites to get into the promised land because that age included children up to age 20 and I'm sure each of us would say that an "age of accountability" would be younger than that when it comes to salvation. We can also look to see God's hand in judgment against nations who He sent the Israelites against where He said to kill even the infants of those people yet not one of those infants did anything to bring the judgment of death on themselves other than just being of a group of people. So I don't think we can see the earthly justice and/or mercy of God as being the rule for heaven as well.

I believe that Scripture teaches that we are sinful people from birth (or even before birth), that our "nature" has been marred by sin and that we, in our natural state do not have ANY way to find God. It takes God's call on us to be able to respond to Him and when He calls us, we WILL respond to Him.

 

[Winman]

Now you said earlier that babies are not sinners but here you said that they are.

I disagree that God does not hold people accountable for sin just because they don't know it's a sin but I think that He instead can impart grace and cover the sin with the blood of His Son if He so chooses. But I do not see in Scripture where God says that there is an "age of accountability" even if we use the age of Israelites to get into the promised land because that age included children up to age 20 and I'm sure each of us would say that an "age of accountability" would be younger than that when it comes to salvation. We can also look to see God's hand in judgment against nations who He sent the Israelites against where He said to kill even the infants of those people yet not one of those infants did anything to bring the judgment of death on themselves other than just being of a group of people. So I don't think we can see the earthly justice and/or mercy of God as being the rule for heaven as well.

I believe that Scripture teaches that we are sinful people from birth (or even before birth), that our "nature" has been marred by sin and that we, in our natural state do not have ANY way to find God. It takes God's call on us to be able to respond to Him and when He calls us, we WILL respond to Him.

No, I said we are not BORN sinners. Being born is not a sin. You do not become a sinner until you actually sin.

Why is this so hard to understand? Would you call somebody a bank robber who has never robbed a bank? Would you call someone a kidnapper who has never kidnapped someone?

Of course not, that would be ridiculous. And it is the same with sin, you must commit sin to be a sinner.

I cannot see a difference between our nature and Adam and Eve's. They could sin and did.

And we don't have to sin. I have sinned plenty but I can honestly say I never had to sin. Nobody held a gun to my head. I could have done the right thing.

Tell me, was there ever a time you absolutely had to sin? I mean, was there a time when you absolutely could not resist doing something wrong and were compelled by force to do it?

Be honest now.

 

[annsni]

No, I said we are not BORN sinners. Being born is not a sin. You do not become a sinner until you actually sin.

Why is this so hard to understand? Would you call somebody a bank robber who has never robbed a bank? Would you call someone a kidnapper who has never kidnapped someone?

Of course not, that would be ridiculous. And it is the same with sin, you must commit sin to be a sinner.

I cannot see a difference between our nature and Adam and Eve's. They could sin and did.

And we don't have to sin. I have sinned plenty but I can honestly say I never had to sin. Nobody held a gun to my head. I could have done the right thing.

Tell me, was there ever a time you absolutely had to sin? I mean, was there a time when you absolutely could not resist doing something wrong and were compelled by force to do it?

Be honest now.

Before I was saved, I WAS compelled. Now, I was a child before I was saved at 7 and I clearly remember doing bad things and KNOWING they were bad.

But once I was saved, I didn't have the compulsion that I had before. Yes, I still sinned but I had the Spirit in me to convict me of that sin.

So, you say that babies are not sinners. So why do they die?

 

[Winman]

Before I was saved, I WAS compelled. Now, I was a child before I was saved at 7 and I clearly remember doing bad things and KNOWING they were bad.

But once I was saved, I didn't have the compulsion that I had before. Yes, I still sinned but I had the Spirit in me to convict me of that sin.

So, you say that babies are not sinners. So why do they die?

I remember before I was saved around 10 or 11 years old. I knew the difference between right and wrong. I was never compelled by my nature to do something wrong. I always had control over myself.

Are you saying you did not have control over your actions?

Physical death did pass upon all men, and not just men, but animals and even unliving things. Even unliving things grow old and decay.

But this is accounted for. The scriptures clearly say God cursed the ground. We and all life are made from the elements in the ground. So, everything grows old and decays.

Now you show me where God cursed man's moral nature.

 

[annsni]

I remember before I was saved around 10 or 11 years old. I knew the difference between right and wrong. I was never compelled by my nature to do something wrong. I always had control over myself.

Are you saying you did not have control over your actions?

Physical death did pass upon all men, and not just men, but animals and even unliving things. Even unliving things grow old and decay.

But this is accounted for. The scriptures clearly say God cursed the ground. We and all life are made from the elements in the ground. So, everything grows old and decays.

Now you show me where God cursed man's moral nature.

You mean that the curse on the ground rubbed off on us because we are dust? I don't see that in Scripture.

 

[Winman]

You mean that the curse on the ground rubbed off on us because we are dust? I don't see that in Scripture.

Well, here you go.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Do you see it now?

Now, show me where God cursed man's moral nature so that he is incapable of doing anything good, or being completely incapable of believeing God's word. I would love to see that if you can show it.

 

[annsni]

The ground is cursed - not man's "dust" body.

God didn't need to curse man's moral nature. He did that himself. The penalty of sin is death.

 

[Winman]

The ground is cursed - not man's "dust" body.

God didn't need to curse man's moral nature. He did that himself. The penalty of sin is death.

I can tell you that our bodies are cursed. I have pictures of myself taken 30 years ago, and I can easily see the effects of the curse.

And I can feel them too.

How could man curse his own moral nature? The scriptures say we cannot add one cubit to our stature.

 

[Steven2006]

I had asked if, since people are born sinless, if we can continue to be sinless if we tried. Surely if we are born sinless there must have been one other person in this entire history of mankind who was able to never sin through his/her entire life other than Jesus.

-emphasis mine

This can't be a serious question. If man is born with a sin nature, which we know from the bible that he is, man is unable to not sin; he sins continually because he is a sinner by nature.

 

[Steven2006]

Yes, babies are born sinners - else they could not sin.

It sounds like you are saying that babies are born with sins already attributed to them. How do you reconcile that with these verses?


2 Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he did not execute, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, in which the LORD commanded, saying, "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; but a person shall be put to death for his own sin."

Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.


Eze 18:20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

[DHK]

This thread has gone far too long and needs to be closed.