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TULIP: Unconditional Election

Dr. Walter

New Member
Merely being "elect" is not salvific. If so, that would negate all else that the Scriptures share and command regarding evangelism, justification, adoption, etc. It may mean that those who are elect will complete the process, however.

Election IS NOT salvation but it is "TO" salvation (2Thes. 2:13) which salvation is "THROUGH" sanctification of the Spirit (separation by the Spirit through regeneration) "AND" the belief of the truth.

Therefore election is not BECAUSE OF salvation forseen (Rom. 9:11) but faith is foreordained by God (Jn. 6:64-65) as God is the author of such faith (Heb. 12:2; Jn. 6:29; 44-45; 64-65) and not man (2 Thes. 2:3).

Those who deny this position have only two recourses; (1) Pit scripture against the scriptures given; (2) argue from a flawed philosophical basis that is pitted against the scriptures given. They cannot confront the scriptures given in an exegetical fashion.
 
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glfredrick

New Member
The foundations of the Calvinist model (in true 5 point fashion) dictate that what the speaker says and what the listener chooses are not at all factors in the outcome of who is saved and who is lost.

This is not at all true. God tells us specifically the process by which the completion of salvation is attained and it is not deterministic. You are describing hyper-Calvinism, not Calvinism.

Thus in the true Calvinist evangelistic meeting the logically "consistent" evangelistic appeal WOULD be to day "What you choose and what I say here tonight matter not one single whit in determining who will be saved tonight and who will remain lost. So let us dispense with this evening's Bible study. We will all just sit in silence and then watch to see who it is that God has just-so-happened to predestined to come forward and be saved". And then he is seated.

If you build your argument on a straw man proposition that does not describe accurately the Calvinist position, then I can see how you might arrive at this conclusion. However, you missed the mark above, and so have "erected your scaffolding" on the wrong house. No matter how good a paint job you do while there, at the end of the day, the wrong house is painted.

God says clearly -- to both the Arminian and the Calvinist, "Preach the Word, in season and out..." and, "If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart..." ALL the passages in Scripture that detail salvation work for both Calvinist and Arminian. Saying otherwise is nothing more than open warfare and utter falsehood -- both called sin by God when applied to a brother or sister in the Lord. So too is setting Scripture against Scripture! If either system has a fear of any Scripture passage, then that system is not of the Lord. Calvinists do not ignore a single Scripture in their theology. I pray it is the same for Arminians, who seem to have problems with some of the overtly sovereign passages.

After all -- in the true 5 Point model the speaker CANNOT claim with conviction "God Loves YOU listener and God wants YOU to come forward and accept the Gospel". For all the speaker knows - God does not love a single person that is there.

At least in the 5 point model.

Again, you are wrong, and I proclaim that very thing every time I preach. While God certainly hates sin, The Word says that "He loved the whole world..." What you are suggesting (again) is a position apart from true Calvinism. Why would a Calvinist not proclaim the entire Scripture to their people? Are they some other "religion" and a cult? God forbid!

In rebuttal, let me ask this simple question of you...

When God reveals Himself in glory, will there be an Arminian in the crowd? Can any refuse Him? Of course, at that point it is also too late for salvation. The Scriptures are clear on that. We have one life to live, then the judgment.

That may the point where your theology fails. Consider wisely, for we all understand very well the biblical admonitions of one who preaches another gospel.
 

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
----snip----When God reveals Himself in glory, will there be an Arminian in the crowd? Can any refuse Him? Of course, at that point it is also too late for salvation. The Scriptures are clear on that. We have one life to live, then the judgment.
----snip----

I doubt that there will be EITHER Calvinist nor Arminian when Jesus is Revealed in all His Glory.

Just Blood Bought Brothers and Sisters in Christ...

Thankfully!
 

glfredrick

New Member
I doubt that there will be EITHER Calvinist nor Arminian when Jesus is Revealed in all His Glory.

Just Blood Bought Brothers and Sisters in Christ...

Thankfully!

Great answer, but it fails to actually address my question. Will there be one who can resist God when God reveals Himself in glory?
 

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
Great answer, but it fails to actually address my question. Will there be one who can resist God when God reveals Himself in glory?

Rom 14:11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, "every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Kinda a loaded question actually because there is only one possible answer... :love2:

But, we are still "here" and His Manifest Presence is not...

So, I suspect that we mere mortals will continue to hash this issue out ad infinitum (or some other catchy latin phrase)
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
I doubt that there will be EITHER Calvinist nor Arminian when Jesus is Revealed in all His Glory.

Just Blood Bought Brothers and Sisters in Christ...

Thankfully!

GE:

Untrue.

On the right there shall be "just Blood Bought Brothers and Sisters in Christ..."

On the left hand there shall be just the reprobate --- with not a single Elect!
 
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glfredrick

New Member
Rom 14:11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, "every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Kinda a loaded question actually because there is only one possible answer... :love2:

But, we are still "here" and His Manifest Presence is not...

So, I suspect that we mere mortals will continue to hash this issue out ad infinitum (or some other catchy latin phrase)

Don't press ahead of me on this...

Next question...

If God were to reveal His presence to someone, could they resist any more in this earthly life than when He comes in all His glory?

You have already admitted that the Scriptural position is one where "every knee will bow..."
 

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
Don't press ahead of me on this...

Next question...

If God were to reveal His presence to someone, could they resist any more in this earthly life than when He comes in all His glory?

You have already admitted that the Scriptural position is one where "every knee will bow..."

There is a big difference between being forced to bend the knee by a superior force, and voluntarily surrendering one's will.

Every knee *will* bow...

But, that does not neccesarily mean they will be bowing into or because of salvation...

Nice try though... :D
 

eightball

New Member
Gerhard:

I will present this very real scenario again and hopefully you will give me some sort of an answer.

The "elect" are pre-salvation, but need you and all bro's and sisters in Christ to "complete" the salvation process by presenting to the "pre-elect" the complete story of Christs' work unto their completed salvation.

Does this not involve you in the salvation process as a Calvinist that usurpts God's work? Hard core Calvinists believe that free-will to choose is involving one in the salvation process to the extent of doing God's work, and therefore is unbiblical?

So I ask this; " what comes of the "elect" that are "pre-salvation", but don't get to hear the Salvation Message from someone-unto salvation?
There are minute and major inconsistencies here with your presentation of salvation from the Calvinist camp.

You say that the believer must present the salvation message "unto salvation" for the "pre-saved-elect" and don't see that as involving oneself(humanity) in God's miraculous work.

Again I ask, "What comes of the "pre-saved-elect" that "DIE" before hearing the message?"?
 
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glfredrick

New Member
There is a big difference between being forced to bend the knee by a superior force, and voluntarily surrendering one's will.

Every knee *will* bow...

But, that does not neccesarily mean they will be bowing into or because of salvation...

Nice try though... :D

You have went and read into my question again...

ALL I asked was, "If God were to reveal His presence to someone, could they resist any more in this earthly life than when He comes in all His glory?"

Answer that question before we jump ahead. The answer is fairly simple, yes or no. Either one would resist God revealed or not, which is it? I'm not even arguing theology here. Just a simple question based on Scripture.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
There is a big difference between being forced to bend the knee by a superior force, and voluntarily surrendering one's will.

Every knee *will* bow...

But, that does not neccesarily mean they will be bowing into or because of salvation...

Nice try though... :D

Indeed - God can "force" whatever he wills if He so chooses --

God "is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

But God does not "force" that outcome even though it is His will that all be saved.

Indeed Matt 23 shows Christ saying "HOW I WANTED to save your children... but you would not!"

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
You have just demonstrated that you are completely ignorant of the Spurgeon type of Calvinism.

The Arminian when on his knees prays like a Calvinist. You never hear an Armininian pray "God, you and I are waiting for Lost Joe to make a decision for Christ and I know you and I are both powerless in this thing and so I will just wait with you God and hope Joe comes to Christ"

You hear the ARminian pray the very NON Calvinist prayer "Father I pray that you will work on the heart of lost Joe and open his eyes that he may see his lost condition and choose to turn from his wicked ways in repentance accepting the Gospel of salvation. I pray that you will open my eyes that I may see clearly the right words to say to Lost Joe on the very point where he is open to considering that specific idea.

God I thank you for your long suffering with sinful men and that your word says you are not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance".

Walter said -
Unconditional election demands there is a people to reach with the gospel that will come to Christ. Unconditional election has chosen the persons as well as the means to their salvation.

1. There is already a lost world to reach. So "God so loved the WORLD that He gave ..." yes He "really" so loved the World.

"ALL have sinned" Romans 3.

2. There is already the Gospel means of salvation "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 NIV.

3. There is already the REACHING of mankind "He is the light that coming into the World - enlightens every man" John 1.

The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

"I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

4. At no point in any of this is Calvinism's "arbitrary selection" process called for. Rather as we see in Romans 2:11 "God is not partial".

in Christ,

Bob
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
4. At no point in any of this is Calvinism's "arbitrary selection" process called for. Rather as we see in Romans 2:11 "God is not partial".

in Christ,

Bob
The reason is that "Calvinism's "arbitrary selection" process" is a figment of your imagination. No wonder you can't find it!

No Calvinist claims that God is arbitrary in His Divine Election. God has a purpose in His Divine Election, "according to the good pleasure of his will."
 

glfredrick

New Member
You hear the ARminian pray the very NON Calvinist prayer "Father I pray that you will work on the heart of lost Joe and open his eyes that he may see his lost condition and choose to turn from his wicked ways in repentance accepting the Gospel of salvation. I pray that you will open my eyes that I may see clearly the right words to say to Lost Joe on the very point where he is open to considering that specific idea.

God I thank you for your long suffering with sinful men and that your word says you are not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance".



1. There is already a lost world to reach. So "God so loved the WORLD that He gave ..." yes He "really" so loved the World.

"ALL have sinned" Romans 3.

2. There is already the Gospel means of salvation "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE world" 1John 2:2 NIV.

3. There is already the REACHING of mankind "He is the light that coming into the World - enlightens every man" John 1.

The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

"I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

4. At no point in any of this is Calvinism's "arbitrary selection" process called for. Rather as we see in Romans 2:11 "God is not partial".

in Christ,

Bob

Is the above your position?

Also, what of my simple question above? Are you afraid to answer?

I'll second TCassidy's point. There is no arbitrariness with God.

In fact, in thinking through this continuing debate tonight (and every night lately) I started wondering just who would LOVE for men to reject God -- as that seems to be the point that every Arminian argues for! They want a man to be able to reject God! They don't want God to have the final say... Who would want that, of all created beings? Satan... That's who.

Now, I'm not calling Arminians the devil -- no way! But I am saying that when we look at the arguments -- the GREAT desire for men to have freedom of will to REJECT God -- the ONLY one who would really want that (apart from those who's theology is not well informed) is Satan. That, in and of itself would make me re-think my position if I were one of the ones arguing for the right of a man to reject God!

Now, back to the thread... Are you going to answer my question above or keep dancing? I even have a couple of Scriptural examples I can spring on you... :laugh:
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
"The President of the Seminary I attended taught us many important things. One was:

"If a person cannot argue the issue he will usually try to argue the semantics. If he is too ignorant to argue the semantics he will usually try to argue personality."

"If you can't answer a man's argument all is not lost you can still call him vile names" Elbert Hubbard."


GE:

I have this weakness, If a person cannot argue the issue and will usually try to argue the semantics, and if he is too ignorant to argue the semantics and will usually try to argue personality, if he can't answer a man's arguments, I am all too prone to call him vile names in desperation.

The truth can be dealt with; a lie CANNOT.
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Is the above your position?

Also, what of my simple question above? Are you afraid to answer?

I'll second TCassidy's point. There is no arbitrariness with God.

In fact, in thinking through this continuing debate tonight (and every night lately) I started wondering just who would LOVE for men to reject God -- as that seems to be the point that every Arminian argues for! They want a man to be able to reject God! They don't want God to have the final say... Who would want that, of all created beings? Satan... That's who.

Now, I'm not calling Arminians the devil -- no way! But I am saying that when we look at the arguments -- the GREAT desire for men to have freedom of will to REJECT God -- the ONLY one who would really want that (apart from those who's theology is not well informed) is Satan. That, in and of itself would make me re-think my position if I were one of the ones arguing for the right of a man to reject God!

Now, back to the thread... Are you going to answer my question above or keep dancing? I even have a couple of Scriptural examples I can spring on you... :laugh:

GE:

You hit the nail on the head; you are right on the thread and on track. You will understand what I say above...
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Now, I'm not calling Arminians the devil -- no way! But I am saying that when we look at the arguments -- the GREAT desire for men to have freedom of will to REJECT God -- the ONLY one who would really want that (apart from those who's theology is not well informed) is Satan. That, in and of itself would make me re-think my position if I were one of the ones arguing for the right of a man to reject God!
You don't believe the possibility is there for YOUR doctrine could to be the workings of satan? Satan's desire is to remove any kind of accountability, what your doctrine does if you will follow the logical conclusion. Satan used that on Eve in the Garden of Eden. If it's "all God", there is no "but" associated with it...it is literally "all God", each sin committed, each rejection, etc.

I guess it boils down to a matter of perspective.
 

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
----snip----
Now, I'm not calling Arminians the devil -- no way! But I am saying that when we look at the arguments -- the GREAT desire for men to have freedom of will to REJECT God -- the ONLY one who would really want that (apart from those who's theology is not well informed) is Satan. That, in and of itself would make me re-think my position if I were one of the ones arguing for the right of a man to reject God!
----snip---

No but you are saying "we" are in league with and doing the devil's bidding...

And then closed laughing about it...

Sorry, but I would never have called even a hyper-calvinist of the devil.

And, I have to seriously reconsider that, now...

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I guess the shed Blood of Jesus Christ is insufficient for Family Ties, for at least a few on this board?



 

glfredrick

New Member
No but you are saying "we" are in league with and doing the devil's bidding...

And then closed laughing about it...

Sorry, but I would never have called even a hyper-Calvinist of the devil.

And, I have to seriously reconsider that, now...

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I guess the shed Blood of Jesus Christ is insufficient for Family Ties, for at least a few on this board?




I used a laugh smiley to show that I am not angry as I post. Without non-verbal cues, it is easy (as you have just proven) to mistake the tenor of any given post.

I am not saying that Arminians are in league with the devil. I made that clear above. I AM saying that the DIRECTION pressed forward most often in these debates is one that INSISTS that men have the right to REJECT GOD. When I think about WHOM might insist on that right, I come up with ONE NAME -- Satan.

Take that for what you will. God seeks to share His good news with all men -- it says so in the Scriptures for Calvinist and Arminian alike -- so that is what we do. Calvinists, however, DO NOT vociferously argue for the RIGHT OF MEN TO REJECT GOD.
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
In fact, in thinking through this continuing debate tonight (and every night lately) I started wondering just who would LOVE for men to reject God -- as that seems to be the point that every Arminian argues for! They want a man to be able to reject God! They don't want God to have the final say... Who would want that, of all created beings? Satan... That's who.

Of course, man did reject God at the FALL, and man does in a real sense reject God when he sins. These are facts, and pointing out these facts doesn't mean one is happy about it or "desires" it (let alone, that one would herald this as a "right" that man is somehow entitled to). On the other hand God will have the final say--to those who rejected Him, He will say "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire".
 
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