No one is righteous = No one can believe???

[Luke2427]

Show us all where you clearly answered these questions with anything other than the following phrase which does NOT answer them: "God did not purpose to effectually cause all men to believe and be saved."

That does not even ADDRESS the questions, Skan. It is simply a deflection.

 

[Skandelon]

Show us all where you clearly answered these questions with anything other than the following phrase which does NOT answer them: "God did not purpose to effectually cause all men to believe and be saved."

That does not even ADDRESS the questions, Skan. It is simply a deflection.

I answer the question in replies: 35, 48, 52, 58

Your turn. You tell me what you think Arminians believe, since you know it as well as I do.

 

[webdog]

Skandelon, at this point it would be wise to ignore Luke....for your sanity. My greying process began to miraculously reverse when I did :laugh: it's like the "whos on first" routine

 

[MB]

Skandelon, at this point it would be wise to ignore Luke....for your sanity. My greying process began to miraculously reverse when I did :laugh: it's like the "whos on first" routine

A men to that
MB

 

[JesusFan]

Let me help you out by answering a question about Calvinism:

Question: Do most Calvinism believe evangelism is necessary?
Calvinistic Answer: Yes, because those are the means God has chosen.

Now, your turn:

Question: Do Arminians believe God desires to save every person. And if so do they believe God has failed when someone is not saved?

Arminian Answer: _______________________________

Arminians DO believe that God desires to save all people, its just that they believe that God lives the ultimate/final decision to the Will of man!

While Cals Moderate like myself would tend to say that God also desires all to be saved, but knows that they are unable to do that being depraived and inable to place faith in Christ to meet Gods requirement so he directly intervenes on behalf of His elect to make sure they do exercise faith and get saved...

 

[Skandelon]

Arminians DO believe that God desires to save all people, its just that they believe that God lives the ultimate/final decision to the Will of man!

While Cals Moderate like myself would tend to say that God also desires all to be saved, but knows that they are unable to do that being depraived and inable to place faith in Christ to meet Gods requirement so he directly intervenes on behalf of His elect to make sure they do exercise faith and get saved...

And based on that do you think Arminians believe God has somehow failed when someone is not saved? Why?

 

[JesusFan]

And based on that do you think Arminians believe God has somehow failed when someone is not saved? Why?

Not saying that God has failed by your Theology, just that we tend to see it as lowering God down while raising up and exaulting man to a degree...

Just as Arminians have accused cals of holding to God being Soverign "too highly" think Arms tend to hold to "free will" 'too highly"

 

[Skandelon]

Not saying that God has failed by your Theology, just that we tend to see it as lowering God down while raising up and exaulting man to a degree...

Ok, that is fair, but you do recognize the we believe that is being done BY HIS CHOOSING, not ours, right? In other words, you understand that we believe God is the one who decided to "raise up" man to that "degree," and not us?

Also, don't you agree that we are at a "higher" degree than animals and the "angels?" What makes us "higher" in that respect?

 

[JesusFan]

Ok, that is fair, but you do recognize the we believe that is being done BY HIS CHOOSING, not ours, right? In other words, you understand that we believe God is the one who decided to "raise up" man to that "degree," and not us?

Also, don't you agree that we are at a "higher" degree than animals and the "angels?" What makes us "higher" in that respect?

Do understand that you would hold to God deciding to voluntary "limiting" Himself to allow Humans to be able to freely and fully have free will restored to them by prevelient Grace, and that He would allow Himself to be "bound" in a sense to whatever decision Humans would make concerning Jesus Christ.

just seems that God would be more "hands on" in this area, to make it "definent" that at least SOME wpuld be getting saved, instead of leaving it open to having a chance NONE would believe in Jesus!

And again, isn't it your faith in jesus that "triggers" God electing you into the Bride, Body of Christ?

 

[preacher4truth]

I know I will draw heat for this, but I believe when the scriptures say there is none good, it is speaking of 100% perfection like Jesus, it is not saying man cannot do SOME good things. I believe there is scripture to support this.

Eze 2:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

You have two possibilities here;

#1 A righteous person can lose their salvation

#2 An unregenerate person can do righteous works

Take your pick.

Of course you'll draw heat. More false teaching from you.

None doeth good.

Jesus said there is only one good. God.

When He said none doeth good, he meant you, too, that believe you merited God to choose you by your works. Another false teaching of yours that "draws heat."

 

[Skandelon]

Do understand that you would hold to God deciding to voluntary "limiting" Himself to allow Humans to be able to freely and fully have free will restored to them by prevelient Grace, and that He would allow Himself to be "bound" in a sense to whatever decision Humans would make concerning Jesus Christ.

just seems that God would be more "hands on" in this area, to make it "definent" that at least SOME wpuld be getting saved, instead of leaving it open to having a chance NONE would believe in Jesus!

And again, isn't it your faith in jesus that "triggers" God electing you into the Bride, Body of Christ?

but that presumes we don't affirm foreknowledge...and God's ability to intervene in any manner He desires to actively "control" people and events in order to accomplish any purpose He seeks to accomplish.

 

[Winman]

Of course you'll draw heat. More false teaching from you.

None doeth good.

Jesus said there is only one good. God.

When He said none doeth good, he meant you, too, that believe you merited God to choose you by your works. Another false teaching of yours that "draws heat."

Then how do you explain that God said a man's "righteousness which he hath done" shall not be remembered in Eze 3:20 if a man cannot do any righteous acts?

And I have never said a man is saved by works, I said a man is JUDGED by his works, a distinction you cannot seem to grasp.

My issue is with Total Inability, not salvation by grace.

 

[MB]

None doeth good.

Ever consider who first said that and what kind of man he was?.
Psa 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Jesus said there is only one good. God.

Wrong He said:
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
We aren't talking about who is good but who can do good.

When He said none doeth good, he meant you, too,

Of course but who pays any attention to a fool?

that believe you merited God to choose you by your works. Another false teaching of yours that "draws heat."

How many times must he tell you he doesn't believe that before it sinks in?
. Calvinist can't see past there own accusations. You just don't understand his doctrine. Maybe you have something preventing you from understanding the truth .:laugh: Must be the accusing attitude.
MB

 

[preacher4truth]

When debating Calvinists I too often here them quote Romans 3 where Paul said, "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

They quote this as if it proves their contention that because no one is righteous according to the law that no one can be declared righteous through faith either. They wrongly seem to equate the righteousness which people of that day believed came by observing the law with righteousness, apart from the law, which comes through faith in Christ, who fulfilled the law on our behalf.

Paul explain this distinction if one continues to read the entire context of Romans 3:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

Now, on what basis do Calvinists equate the inability of man to be righteous observing the law with their contention regarding men's inability to be credited as righteous through faith in Christ?

IOW, does man's inability to be righteous through observing the law prove his inability to be righteous through faith in the one who fulfilled the law on our behalf? If so, where in scripture is that taught?

Having listened to much teaching and debates on Calvinism, I have never once heard any teacher apply this Scripture in this manner.

Grace has always been the way of Salvation. Where has any Calvinist said that inability to obey the Law (which only One could do perfectly) proves one also unable to be righteous through faith?

I have never heard anyone teach this. Ever.

Sounds like a drummed up theory. I would like some proof of others who have taugh this, and what type of debates you have been in (online, collegiate, denominational) and the proponents of what you claim.

 

[preacher4truth]

Ever consider who first said that and what kind of man he was?.
Psa 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Wrong He said:
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
We aren't talking about who is good but who can do good.

Uh. You just proved exactly what I said. Which is (Mt. 19): The exact same thing this passage says. Try reading what I said before you try to refute? Not only does God do good, He alone IS good.

Of course but who pays any attention to a fool?

How many times must he tell you he doesn't believe that before it sinks in?
. Calvinist can't see past there own accusations. You just don't understand his doctrine. Maybe you have something preventing you from understanding the truth .:laugh: Must be the accusing attitude.
MB

Look at the NT version of there are none that doeth good, it's to the world. It's to you too.

I've never seen someone more wrong than you theologically.

No need to engage you any further. Obeying Scripture on when dealing with your type.

As to your last statement, friend? He does teach what I've said. He was elected by works, thus it is conditional, because he teaches God judged him by his works, then elected him.

Try knowing what you're talking about. And pay attention to Scripture I quoted, that you use against me blindly, you know, the ones which say exactly what I said.

:wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

Then how do you explain that God said a man's "righteousness which he hath done" shall not be remembered in Eze 3:20 if a man cannot do any righteous acts?

And I have never said a man is saved by works, I said a man is JUDGED by his works, a distinction you cannot seem to grasp.

My issue is with Total Inability, not salvation by grace.

No, your issue is that you think you were pretty good, and earned election by your works.

It's hard for you to accept that you are a sinner, totally unrighteous.

To you? You were just a little bit off, needed a little help. You helped God, and He saw your works, and then elected you.

Same false teaching. Different thread.

Yep JUDGED by his works. I grasp it fully. You tie it to election, saying it is NOT unconditional (election), but conditional, i.e. based on what you do, you get elected. It's what you teach and believe. That's salvation by works. That's what you have and embrace.

But scripture shows you a ...[edited by moderator] Titus 3:5, Eph. 2:8-9.

 

[Skandelon]

Having listened to much teaching and debates on Calvinism, I have never once heard any teacher apply this Scripture in this manner.

Grace has always been the way of Salvation. Where has any Calvinist said that inability to obey the Law (which only One could do perfectly) proves one also unable to be righteous through faith?

I have never heard anyone teach this. Ever.

Sounds like a drummed up theory. I would like some proof of others who have taugh this, and what type of debates you have been in (online, collegiate, denominational) and the proponents of what you claim.

It was actually started based on a discussion in another thread where I had asked the question regarding what texts support the Calvinistic teaching of man's total inability to believe the gospel and Romans 8 was quoted where it speaks of man's inability to submit to God's law. I then asked what does man's inability to fulfill the law have to do with man's inability to believe in the one who fulfilled it for us...the question of this OP.

If this is new to you then maybe you just haven't heard this line of reasoning from Calvinists before, but I've heard it numerous times.

 

[preacher4truth]

It was actually started based on a discussion in another thread where I had asked the question regarding what texts support the Calvinistic teaching of man's total inability to believe the gospel and Romans 8 was quoted where it speaks of man's inability to submit to God's law. I then asked what does man's inability to fulfill the law have to do with man's inability to believe in the one who fulfilled it for us...the question of this OP.

If this is new to you then maybe you just haven't heard this line of reasoning from Calvinists before, but I've heard it numerous times.

That's not a line of reasoning at all. It's utter foolishness. Do you have some kind of source for this so I can see it?

 

[MB]

Uh. You just proved exactly what I said. Which is (Mt. 19): The exact same thing this passage says. Try reading what I said before you try to refute?



Look at the NT version of there are none that doeth good, it's to the world. It's to you too.

I've never seen someone more wrong than you theologically.

Unless it's your self when you look in the mirror. The NT doesn't say what you claim it did. It's talking about God being good not what men do.

as i said before

No need to engage you any further. Obeying Scripture on when dealing with your type.

Well that's probably because you are unable to debate like a gentileman.

As to your last statement, friend? He does teach what I've said. He was elected by works, thus it is conditional, because he teaches God judged him by his works, then elected him.

Seems the other way around to me you're the Calvinist. You have two choices here. As a Calvinist you can claim God elected you randomly or He chose you partiucularity. If the first is it then you are a fatalist and if the second is it. You're claiming God chose you because He preferred you over others. In which case this heresey is stating you are calling God's word a liar. Which is it?
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

People aren't chosen particularity with out reason. Any reason would be considered respect of the works they do all ready.

Try knowing what you're talking about. And pay attention to Scripture I quoted, that you use against me blindly, you know, the ones which say exactly what I said.

:wavey:

Funny you should mention it but I was about to say the same to you.
MB

 

[preacher4truth]

Unless it's your self when you look in the mirror. The NT doesn't say what you claim it did. It's talking about God being good not what men do.

Well that's probably because you are unable to debate like a gentileman.

Seems the other way around to me you're the Calvinist. You have two choices here. As a Calvinist you can claim God elected you randomly or He chose you partiucularity. If the first is it then you are a fatalist and if the second is it. You're claiming God chose you because He preferred you over others. In which case this heresey is stating you are calling God's word a liar. Which is it?
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

People aren't chosen partiucularity with out reason. Any reason would be considered respect of the works they do all ready.

Funny you should mention it but I was about to say the same to you.
MB

Hello MB. (In the tone of Seinfelds "hello newman") :laugh:

More drivel from you. "partiucularity?" Uh. LOL! Even more drivel.

I never claimed God chose me because He preferred me. YOU said that. Yet another lie from you. Are you and Winnie related? You both often lie.

God chose me unconditionally, as he did Abram, David, and all others who will enjoy eternity with Him. I know you don't like God being Sovereign like that. You'd rather He be limited to your own design of Him. So you can be in control of what He ought do.

Fatalist? Nope. More drivel. More lies.

You're losing. Again. So, you resort to lies and twisting Scriptures and stere-typing, accusations, name-calling implications.

You're a theological shipwreck. And full of lies. Try actually saying what I actually have said. :love2:


:thumbsup: